Flame warriors on the Internet

The politics of cyber-acculturation

[Hover your mouse-cursor over the images and labels on the left to review a gallery of Flame Warriors]

[Counters temporarily disabled]

[Digest is still being compiled, reformatted, copyedited and proofed; Introduction still to be completed – Sunthar]

This digest is an analytical reflection on the unprecedented problems, best practices, and collective goals of cyber-dialogue by drawing our attention to the most typical flame-warriors caught in the act of falling into their predefined stereotype. While the larger context is provided by my exchange, from May 28, 2001 onwards, with Jeff Conklin on the technological infrastructure—especially the problems of asynchronous (i.e., email) communication (as opposed to face-to-face meetings)—for maximizing meaningful discussion across the Internet, the focus here is on emotional blockages, stereotyped behavior, and group dynamics. Several of these ‘dia-gnostic’ posts present a cluster of flame-warriors in sequence not only because they interact, as if in a pre-scripted play, in the dialogue sequence that has been spliced in, but also because this concrete (and often colorful) context affords us deeper insights into how these caricatured archetypes of online ‘personalities’ feed off, and even metamorphose into, each other. 

The following compilations of exchanges may be enjoyed as successive disjointed Acts in an ongoing cyber-drama that flouts all the (Aristotelian) conventions regarding unity of time and place, with no discernible beginning, collective purpose, nor satisfactory denouement, and where the same characters often (re-) appear in varied, shifting, and sometimes even contradictory roles. For the sake of intelligibility, I have repeatedly stepped out to assume the role of ‘stage-manager’ (sūtra-dhāra) to introduce each Act by providing its context, leitmotif, cross-purposes, and ensuing moral, before stepping back in (and not just as the ‘mischievous’ clown-vidūṣaka!) to ensure that this all-encompassing and ongoing drama does not get entirely derailed. For, quite apart from the individual battle-scarred warriors, otherwise caught up in themselves, who have had to make a permanent exit (like the demons asuras who attempted to disrupt Bharata’s first-ever performance of the Sanskrit theater?), we spectator-participants would otherwise end up having to close down this theater that is not just a ‘mirror of the world’ (lokānukīrtanam) of appearances but also of its hidden mainsprings. Some of the more significant and/or extended Acts indeed beautifully ‘act out’ the (all-too?) ‘human’ etiology of very problem that the participants are ostensibly attempting to resolve: a newly-launched forum to break down barriers between Indologists and Hindus that self-destructs immediately thereafter due to squabbles over ‘moderation’; collective (verbal) violence against brahmins that illustrates the scapegoat dynamics that may help clarify the original rationale behind the caste-system; idiosyncratic punctuation, grammar, and style, that undermines the effective communication and sympathetic reception of the intended message; [to be completed]

We owe a hearty thanks and deep appreciation to artist Mike Reed (we have his explicit blessings) for making his gallery of Flame-Warriors available so freely on the Internet and captioning each with such apt and amusing descriptions (all the images here are actually linked back to his original site). Please visit his original site and get your own signed print of your favorite Flame-Warrior, so as to ensure that he does not fall into the hand of Communists. I do sincerely hope that this illustrated “Politics of Acculturation” digest will bring his work the wide global and serious attention it richly deserves.

I have inserted introductory comments to contextualize some of the posts [Do let me know if your views have been inadvertently omitted or distorted: this is an evolving archive!]. Having decided to make this archive available to the public, I would like to offer some concise clarifications—a conceptual grid as it were—of my own take on the various perspectives that are under scrutiny in this discussion:

Related materials at svAbhinava:

Correspondence with Jeff Conklin on dialogue-mapping

Posting Guidelines for the Abhinavagupta forum

Overview – why dialogues? [to be redacted]

This compilation will be eventually complemented by others including those listed above; in the meantime please check out the (incomplete) Abhinavagupta forum-index under the following headings and topics:

[Forum-Index]

Index to threads below on “Flame Warriors on the Internet” digest:

These index entries are clustered into separate Acts. The headings at the top, introducing each Act, point to my contextualization of the following digest in terms of group-dynamics. The larger flush-left entries, usually at the bottom of each Act, are the flame-warrior posts (invariably from Sunthar), whereas the indented smaller-font entries sandwiched in-between are the illustrative exchanges. If some of the connections and/or allusions are not clear, readers are advised to follow the links to the Abhinava forum to resituate the dialogue in full unedited context:

Issue-Based Information Systems & the Abhinavagupta project

More on Issue-Based Information Systems & the Abhinavagupta project....

Re: More on Issue-Based Information Systems & the Abhinavagupta project....

May I post your chapter on the Friends page of our web-site?

Re: linear versus threaded discussion for Abhinavagupta forum...

Linear versus Threaded discussion - how to Dia-Gnose across knowledge communities

Mike Reed - A Netizen’s Guide to Flame-Warriors

Types of posters

Flame warriors on the Internet: The politics of cyber-acculturation [Mike Reed’s illustrated gallery]

The Administrator - Is the Abhinava forum a (procedural) ‘democracy’ or a ‘dictatorship’?

Suggestion

Religious traditions, globalization and the Internet: problems in cross-cultural communication

OpenRisa is now moderated

Question on focus

Re: Question on focus

Identification

Open openrisa archives?

Re: Open openrisa archives?

A reminder

Re: Open openrisa archives?

Re: Open openrisa archives?

Opening OpenRISA

Re: Opening OpenRISA...

Re: Open openrisa archives?

Re: Open openrisa archives?

Open archives? (Response to Malhotra's argument)

Re: Open archives? (Response to Malhotra's argument)

Closure?

openrisa is now closed

Jnana

Postings

Moderating a discussion group - democracy, kin(g)ship, and regicide on the Internet :-)

[Godzilla, Xenophobe, Duelists, Archivist, Jerk, Nanny]

[Re: Origin of Sanskrit] The blind leading the blind, the loud preaching to the deaf, 'debates' in real-time from a mad-house?

[Godzilla, Xenophobe, Duelists, Archivist, Jerk, Nanny]

Which flame-warrior am I? Diagnosing multiple personality disorders across the Internet

[Which Flame Warrior am I?  - diagnosing multiple personality disorders across the Internet ;-)]

Which Flame Warrior am I? [Pithy Phrase and Therapist]

Profundus Maximus, Newbie, Eagle Scout, and Howlers: the tribulations of the Hierophant

The Hierophant

Re: The Hierophant

Re: The Hierophant [Profundus Maximus and Howlers]

Political correctness (Weenie), subaltern rights (Ethnix), cyber-identity (Impostor): a comedy of errors?

Fwd: [NavyaShastra] Re: The Times of India

On Weenies, Ethnixes, and Impostors - check out our svAbhinava dialogue on 'caste confusion' (varNa-sankara), (cyber-) acculturation, and (mistaken?) identity

Ferrous Cranus, Grenade, Klaxon, Evil Clown

Your time's finally up Shakespear Warrier...see what happens to cyber-theater when the Evil "manuvâdî zûdra-brahmin" Clown takes command of English (apabhramza)! [Ferrous Cranus, Grenade, Klaxon, Evil Clown]

Re: Your time's finally up Shakespear Warrier...see what happens to cyber-theater when the Evil "manuvâdî zûdra-brahmin" Clown takes command of English (apabhramza)!

Propeller-Head, Target, Swarm, Peacemaker

(Caste-) hierarchy, (cyber-) community, and (founding) violence: (clownish) avatârs of the (sacrificial) scapegoat

GOD: the ultimate Flame-Warrior who wins (us all over) without fighting a single battle?

Humor

"An Interview with God" - whose Word (Logos) now works its natural wonders through digital imagery!

[God]

Re: "An Interview with God" - whose Word (Logos) now works its natural wonders through digital imagery!

Rewiring religious traditions, semantic webs, and neural networks - 'representing' (the Unity of) God on the Internet!

Re: Castes (of mind), (cyber-) identity, and flame-warriors on the Internet - who is/killed Malarvizhi?

[All Caps, Grammarian, and Loopy]

[Open Stage]

Is a member of this virtual community accountable for his behavior in another forum?

Is Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?

Re: Is Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?

Re: Is Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?

[Tireless Rebutter]

Loopy, Troller, etc.:

Re: Geopolitics and Sanskrit Phobia

[Troller]

Towards a new sanskriti

[Loopy]

PalAyadhvam, palAyadhvam, re re duSkavi kunjarah

New Debating Tool

New Debating Tool - please check out Jack Paulus website devoted to 'truth-mapping'

Re: Indian ethics [vs normativitis: Is the Abhinava forum moderator a Netiquette Nazi? - sv]

[Netiquette Nazi]

Re: Indian ethics [vs normativitis: Is the Abhinava forum moderator a Netiquette Nazi? - sv]

 

Issue-Based Information Systems & the Abhinavagupta project


Subject: [Abhinava msg #118order of thread reversed]

 More on Issue-Based Information Systems & the Abhinavagupta project....

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Sent:  Monday, May 28, 2001 1:18 PM

To:     Jeff Conklin

Cc:     Jack Park; Michel Biezunski;  [...]

Hi Jeff,

> 

I had drafted a response to your various observations on the greater viability of face-to-face communications media, but did not get to mail it out to the taxonomy list before I quit InformIT. The gist was my own perception that perhaps the most effective communication may be nurtured rather in the space between the synchronous and the asynchronous. I see many advantages to email, particularly the delayed response time (for research, food for thought...). The ability to choose and shuffle one's interlocutors so that (potential) collaborators are brought in at the most opportune moment (even for them). Of course, such a leisurely pace is more feasible in humanities (or even scientific) research than within the (often unrealistic deadlines that define the) context of business projects, which seem to be your primary focus at the moment.

> 

Let’s stay in touch!

Sunthar

                    [Rest of this thread at http://www.svabhinava.org/friends/JeffConklin/IBIS-VIMS-correspond.htm]


Subject:

 Re: More on Issue-Based Information Systems & the Abhinavagupta project....

From: Jeff Conklin

Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 11:51 AM

To: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Cc: Jack Park; Michel Biezunski; [...]

Hello Sunthar,

> 

As for the Abhinavagupta discussion, I agree with your feeling that effective communication takes place “in the space between” the synchronous and asynchronous spaces, but I don't think that email fills that bill, because email is a purely asynchronous tool.  I do agree about the strengths of email that you mention - it is indeed the best collaboration tool we have generally available.  However, I was involved in research in the 80's that showed that threaded discussions (this was on Usenet) went deeper and were more coherent when users could visually see the threading structure of the discussion.  So, we're still missing some basic tools and concepts to help make these virtual discussion spaces less fragmented and more coherent.  That's what I would like to think about in connection to your Abhinavagupta project.

Yours, Jeff


Subject:

 May I post your chapter on the Friends page of our web-site?

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 3:23 PM

To: Jeff Conklin

Dear Jeff,

> >

I plan to add eventually an entire area on Knowledge Management, especially as it relates to India, comparative religion and the current global crisis...

I agree with you that e-mail in itself is an asynchronous tool; what I had in mind was the convergence of a variety of media, both synchronous and asynchronous, the resulting power of communication far exceeding any one of them taken separately.

Looking forward to hearing from you!

Sunthar


Subject:

 Re: linear versus threaded discussion for Abhinavagupta forum...

From: Jeff Conklin

Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:48 AM

To: Sunthar Visuvalingam

At 11:29 PM 11/19/2001 -0600, you wrote:

>Dear Jeff,

> 

I'm reviewing Discus as a possible discussion software for our relocated site. However, it's based on a linear model and I recall your expressing a preference earlier for a threaded model. What is your take on the pros and cons at:

> 

http://support.discusware.com/center/resources/essays/thread.html?

> 

Thanks,

Sunthar

Hi Sunthar,

I'm afraid I'm not going to get a chance to look at Discus this month.  I'd like to check it out ... if you can wait until mid January for my thoughts, then great! 

Best to you and yours,

Jeff


Subject:

 Linear versus Threaded discussion - how to Dia-Gnose across knowledge communities

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002; 1:59 pm

Use many vehicles of communication to assemble a coalition

With the Chariot in this position, there is long term potential to enlarge your scope of influence. As you expand the realm in which you move, you will more freely share your ideas and ideals and meet like-minded souls. Find the energy to travel, make connections and use technology to network. Over time your enthusiasm for seeking new stimulation [...]. Don’t rush the process. Take time to savor each contact. Out of these you will be able to weave a web of team mates. Together you are going to change your world.

Chariot at Outcome (malkhut) position in Tree-of-Life Tarot spread, 29th January 2000.

Dear Jeff,

Actually, I wasn't suggesting that you review the various features of the Discus egroup software but simply respond to their argument for linear (as opposed to threaded hierarchic) postings. In any case, once I got the hang of Yahoo!Groups and its immense powers of aggregation across egroups, the issue of my taking on the administrative and technical burden for these forums became moot. In addition to the advantages of ease of use, administrative tools, neatness and efficiency, let me add a few observations after a month of working with the (not-so-) 'linear' model:

Lazy use of the Reply function - actually if one simply uses the Reply button to respond, Yahoo!Groups does keep track of the resulting thread thus allowing readers to browse to the original post and/or to subsequent comments. However, even cursory inspection will reveal that in most forums, these 'replies' often go off at a tangent, start a new thread, or are simply intended to reduce the number of keystrokes required to post a message. Obviously, technology is only an enabling factor that cannot substitute for cultivating the art of disciplined communication!

Subtopics impose straitjacket on multi-dimensional discourse - Discus does allow users to create subtopics so that the initial discussion may branch indefinitely with subgroups focusing only on those 'conversations' that interest them. The East-West dialogue, for which our Abhinava forum is the pretext, covers such a variety of subjects that some (like this one) are bound to be of only marginal interest to many (who have the Delete button at their disposal). However, contributions that truly advance the frontiers of knowledge would be expected to not only reveal and explore fruitful connections between previously unrelated topics but also stimulate controlled dialogue across separate virtual communities.

Multi-threading and evolving subject heads - personally, I rarely 'reply' to a post. Instead, I craft a new message and append the original email(s), editing them as appropriate. Instead of (still linear!) threading, I embed hyperlinks to relevant postings (sometimes buried deep) within other egroups that develop some of the critical premises in various directions, leaving it to the reader to decide whether to follow up on any of them. My 'response' may contain unobtrusive links to our full-fledged articles or even be introduced by a long citation from one of them, so that others may explore where I'm coming from. About halfway through the 'tentacular' post, I nail down the subject head, and take pains to ensure that the principal argument doesn't stray from its carefully chosen wording (also means that it shows up in archival searches by new members).

Cross-posting and web-thinking - my posts are often conceived with more than one virtual community as the target. Where the relevance to a particular egroup may not be obvious, I simply repost (sometimes just the link) with an introductory note (modifying the subject heading where appropriate) clarifying its significance to their concerns. This implies that the key ideas have to be self-consciously stripped down to their bare essentials to allow access from very different fields of interest. My ideal reader inhabits a few egroups by choice but also 'visits' other communities to enrich him/herself. The World Wide Web is compelling us to not only go beyond (an often vacuous) 'self-expression' to communicate our thoughts more rigorously, but to actually think-out-aloud in public so that others are encouraged to think-along for themselves!

With best wishes for the New Year!

Sunthar

P.S. I hope that we'll be able to pursue these discussions on enabling technologies for virtual trans-communities at our new Dia-Gnosis egroup.

 

Mike Reed - A Netizen’s Guide to Flame-Warriors

Our attention was first drawn to Mike Reed’s amusing gallery of illustrations and descriptions, through Arun Gupta’s posting (6th June 2004) of the URL of the UK-based Politics Forum to the OpenRISA (= Jnâna) list. This was in the midst of interpersonal frictions and haggling over procedural issues that brought increasing pressure on the moderator.  After introducing (my take on the role of) the Administrator, to dia-gnose the melt-down of that forum, I began to draw upon the Netizen’s Guide to capture, highlight, record, and (re-) interpret some of the recurring group dynamics on the Abhinavagupta and related forums, thereby also using these, now frozen, exchanges to better understand the psychosocial barriers to productive communication even outside of cyberspace (i.e., in ‘real’ life).


Subject:

 Types of posters

[Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #128]

From: [Arun Gupta] 

Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 2:42 PM

 

This has nothing to do with Religion in South Asia, and very much to do with the types of forum denizens that we are.

 

Go to

 

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/index.php

 

and see how many types you can recognize.

 

Enjoy!

 

[Arun Gupta]

 


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3837order of thread reversed]

 Flame warriors on the Internet: The politics of cyber-acculturation [Mike Reed’s illustrated gallery]

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam 

Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006; 4:29 pm

This digest is an analytical reflection on the unprecedented problems, best practices, and collective goals, of cyber-dialogue through drawing our attention to the most typical flame-warriors caught in the act of falling into their predefined stereotype. […] We owe a hearty thanks and deep appreciation to artist Mike Reed (we have his explicit blessings) […] I do sincerely hope that this illustrated “Politics of Acculturation” digest will bring his work the wide global and serious attention it richly deserves.

[http://www.svabhinava.org/Dia-Gnosis/DialoguesDiagnosis/FlameWarriors-frame.htm]

Friends,

I thought we might still celebrate this New Year's Day (at least us folks in the 'New' World!) with some collective and mutual entertainment (at our own expense?) by laughing at these (over-?) serious 'antics' (hâsyâbhâsa?) of fellow 'flame-warriors' on this world-wide cyber-stage...

Thanks again to Arun for sharing Mike Reed's URL with the rest of us!

Enjoy!

Sunthar

PS: This svAbhinava digest is still 'under construction' (hence the missing articulations...bandhu?)

PPS: Discussion on the Abhinava list remains suspended till further notice.

 

The Administrator - Is the Abhinava forum a (procedural) ‘democracy’ or a ‘dictatorship’?

The role of the Administrator was introduced in the context of the premature breakdown and closure of the OpenRISA forum over issues of unbiased moderation. John Noyce, a member of the Religion in South Asia (RISA) forum composed primarily of professional (mostly Western) Indologists, took the initiative of launching OpenRISA on April 26, 2004, in response to (mostly negative) RISA discussions around the increasingly strident criticisms of official Indology by self-identified (mostly Indian) Hindus. After his proposal (18 April 2004) that Rajiv Malhotra, who was being branded on RISA as chief instigator, be invited to speak directly for himself, was declined on grounds of his lack of (official) academic credentials to speak on Indian religions, John took it upon himself to create in late April 2004 a new open platform on Yahoo! where (not just Western) Indologists and (not just Indian) Hindus could dialogue on an equal footing over (systemic mis-) representations of India and Hinduism in particular. The increasing number of messages not being approved resulted in growing protests as to the criteria for approval, a crisis in ‘moderation’ that was aggravated by the lack of clear-cut guidelines on posting, forum netiquette, and range of permissible topics. Despite suggestions for rotating the role of moderator through some sort of voting procedure were made (a bad idea, in my opinion), John eventually felt obliged to shut down ‘Open’ RISA because of attempts to undermine his authority and credibility by those on whose very behalf he felt he had launched this new discussion space. Though subsequently re-dubbed as Jnâna (‘knowledge’) to avoid any association wit, judgment upon, and competition with the original (closed?) RISA (whose archives were indeed subsequently closed to non-card-carrying Indologists because of increasing outside scrutiny of ethnocentric slurs), the forum has not seen any dialogue since December 2004 on any topic whatsoever. Included in this Act are posts from John, Rajiv, and Sunthar, addressing issues of moderating the list. OpenRISA’s closure served as a timely opportunity to clarify, in the following exchange, my own role as Administrator of the Abhinavagupta forum. [The exchanges below on ‘opening the archive’ will probably be moved into a separate digest]


Subject:

 Suggestion

From: Rajiv Malhotra

Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004; 5:59 am

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #1]

This list is a good idea but it must be moderated. All it takes is one bad apple (who could also operate under multiple identities) to ruin a serious discourse. Please consider this.

Regards and best wishes,

Rajiv


Subject:

 Religious traditions, globalization and the Internet: problems in cross-cultural communication

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004; 8:46 am

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #2]

John,

I would strongly second Rajiv on the need (see forwarded post below) for a sensitive yet firm moderator (namely yourself)! I would also recommend that you flesh out the forum description so as to provide more focus and some illustrative issues to start the ball rolling.

As regards the Ganesha controversy, members may want to check out the diverse perspectives expressed at the Abhinavagupta forum and that have been indexed at (click Divinities, then Ganesha, on the left frame):

http://www.svabhinava.org/abhinava/ForumIndex/default.htm

> 

Sunthar

 -----Original Message-----

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 9:21 AM

To: Indo-Greek@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Religious traditions, globalization, and the Internet: problems in cross-cultural communication

You'll be able to develop you own insights into some of these communication hurdles and processes at work by following the relevant threads (on AIT/OIT, Indo-European linguistics, Ganesha controversy, etc.) on the IndianCivilizations, RISA-L, Akandabaratam, etc., lists...

Sunthar

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 12:25 PM

To: Dia-Gnosis (dia-gnosis@yahoogroups.com); WTC-911 (WTC-911@yahoogroups.com)

Cc: Abhinavagupta (Abhinavagupta@yahoogroups.com); Hindu-Buddhist

(Hindu-Buddhist@yahoogroups.com); MeccaBenares

(MeccaBenares@yahoogroups.com); Yoga Psychology

(yogapsychology@yahoogroups.com); akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com;

JerusalemBenares@yahoogroups.com; Ontological Ethics

(ontologicalethics@yahoogroups.com); Indo-Roma (Indo-Roma@yahoogroups.com)

Subject: Religious traditions, globalization, and the Internet: problems in cross-cultural communication

For religious identities to emerge, develop, consolidate and survive, communications with the outside world had to be carefully controlled, a condition that was assured by geographical isolation (Japan, South Asia), ethnic solidarity (China), in-group marriage (diaspora Jews), and/or valorizing of oral transmission as opposed to writing (Brahmanism). Conversely, the proselytizing traditions had to rely on direct human contact for conversion (Buddhist missionary preaching), suppress the dissemination of contrary worldviews upon conquest (Islamic iconoclasm, Catholic censorship), and/or rely on new technologies such as printing (Protestant Bible). The promiscuous human intercourse within the public arena and secular workplace of the globalizing society has also resulted in defense mechanisms such as mental compartmentalization whereby immigrants assume one mode of behavior and discourse with the outside world and remain attached to traditional values at home and within the confines of their religious community. The fundamental assumption has been that unmediated and unrestricted access to knowledge—even when indispensable for pursuing one's livelihood—is inherently dangerous to traditional identities that have been constructed around and nurtured by a selective reading of the world. Religious schisms, sectarian differentiation, and heretical developments may be usefully understood as attempts to resolve an overpowering and irreversible breach in pre-existing barriers to communication: Christian universalism from the confrontation of Jewish messianism with the multiplicity of pagan cults of sacrifice; Buddhist world-negation from the disenchantment of the mythico-ritual worldview when the pastoral Vedic tradition clashed headlong with the secularizing mercantile mentality of the city; Rabbinic Judaism as the diaspora response to the Roman destruction of the unifying role of the Temple and the loss of political autonomy. The sudden emergence of an instantaneous, seamless, and anarchic medium of global mass communication is hence both a dire challenge for the traditional religions and an unprecedented opportunity for the uncontrolled proliferation of hybrid identities.

The Internet is already being understood and exploited as a medium of 'glocalization' in that, even as mainstream globalization threatens the very existence of bounded communities and parochial identities, the communications network offers a universal reach to their otherwise marginalized perspectives and projects. The best, and perhaps not so paradoxical, illustration of such developments is the role of the World Wide Web in facilitating the anti-globalization movement to coordinate efforts to defend and promote a worldwide coalition of local interests. Glocalization, however, is redefining the very notion of 'locality' by de-territorializing the context within which learning, exchanges, personal bonding, and other constitutive elements of identity-formation are now operating. The result is an increasing hybridization of not only cultural and historical consciousness, but also of various traditional and postmodern values, as reflected in the fluid, shifting and evolving participation by individuals in multiple Web forums devoted to different issues. The flourishing religious syncretism once so well exemplified by unreflective modes of life among various communities confined by space and time (particularly within South Asian culture) is now making an even more powerful and irreversible comeback in cyberspace, this time on the self-conscious plane of representations. Though Web sites devoted to aggressive partisan agendas mobilize their dispersed adherents more economically and effectively, they thereby expose their tacit assumptions, peculiar logic and inner contradictions to the 'outside' scrutiny of non-adherents more than ever before. Moreover, attempts to proselytize on behalf of these causes or perspectives through open online forums invariably fail due to lack of mediation between multiple and opposed viewpoints. This is true even of academic discussion lists run by professional 'knowledge-workers'—even those of institutionalized and heavily invested disciplines like Orientalism—that are devoted to the ''scientific' analysis of religious traditions. Because their interpretations and even the often tacit assumptions are unacceptable to those who subscribe to the underlying tenets of the traditions under study—i.e., to the 'objects' of their discussion—exchanges are often reduced to 'politically correct' requests for and communication of bibliographic and other resources for research. The successful forums are precisely those that encourage—through the sensitive yet firm mediation of a skilled moderator—the expression of diverse perspectives within the concerned tradition in such a way as to facilitate engagement with those who do not share its presuppositions but possess vital specialist information, useful analytical methods and broad comparative perspectives. What we are witnessing is a degree of reflexivity being brought to bear upon the very processes of debate, dialogue, and consensus that has never been possible in previous mediums. As a decentralized and transparent communication network, the Internet is inevitably transforming the nature and future of religious projects, freeing their respective ideas-values-intentions from the shells of myth, ritual, dogma and institutional control that have till now served as their indispensable supports. The techno-social anarchism of this 'knowledge-environment' offers a fertile common ground for the antinomian impulses hidden within these traditions to engage each other openly and eventually redefine the project of modernity itself.

Audience participation: What are the differences, in your personal experience, between communicating by email and face-to-face? How would you assess your extended monitoring of an intra- and an inter-religious online forum? Did your attempt to discuss a controversial issue, to which you had something special to contribute, result in a satisfying experience to both your interlocutors and yourself? Did you get to know anyone whom you are likely to exchange serious emails with in future? [Specific tasks will be assigned to each participant early in the course]

Recapitulation of topics covered (to include examples and case-studies):

Internet governance not democratic, authoritarian nor based on written laws, but consensual: role of freedom and censorship in this former US security initiative

Drivers: commerce, email, technology, knowledge dissemination, administration, news, virtual community, pleasure, creative expression, grassroots activism

Semantic Web as remedy for glut of unreliable unstructured information, hate speech, spam and disinformation; Topic Maps and knowledge management

Knowledge: free, universal, immediate and simultaneous access to specialist information; Google as personalized window to networked collective memory

Collaboration: pooling of intelligence, skills and experience from diverse backgrounds to solve common problems (Linux alternative to Microsoft Windows)

Activism: Howard Dean presidential campaign through MoveOn.org; online petitions to ban offensive books, subversion of repressive authoritarian regimes

Babel: lack of verbal restraint in absence of face-to-face relationships and real-life consequences, no common ground to build on, difficulty in establishing a hierarchy of learning, over-communication with little progress in understanding

Transgression: paralyzing virus attacks, invasion of privacy, identity theft, thriving commerce in pornography makes policing of moral boundaries impractical

Interactivity: tentative open-ended collaborative thinking with immediate feedback reintroduces virtues of oral communication within written medium

Democracy: inroads by laymen into traditional academic enclaves, scrutiny of behind-the-scenes institutional politics, challenge thereby to dominant paradigms

Natural hierarchies: (re-)established in unpredictable course of live multi-sided discussion where all can see who knows, understands, shares more than others

Collective self-censorship: public access to growing electronic archives eventually reveals whether one is ignorant, inconsistent, biased, duplicitous, self-serving

Virtual community: around crisscrossing common interests, exchanges result in personal bonding across ethnic, national, ideological boundaries (marginal Roma)

Interreligious dialogue: 'human sciences' provide neutral common ground while being obliged to take transcendental claims of traditional participants seriously

Moderator: set ground rules, provide focus, prevent flaming, facilitate productive dialogue; balance between free exchange and censorship of useless digression

Sensibility: exposure to infinite shades of opinion and development of dialogic skills in cyberspace transforms receptivity towards others in real-life environment

Sunthar V.,

"The glocalizing Internet: Tower of Babel or eventual solution?" (Module III of course for managers)

Friends,

The above is extracted from module III of a 4-module course I'm preparing for managerial executives on "Religious traditions, globalization and the Internet; problems in cross-cultural communication." The gist is that religious traditions and globalization that have mostly been analyzed in terms of institutions, practices, economics, technology, etc., may be better understood when these are integrated into a communications model.

I would appreciate constructive feedback on the core argument, choice of topics, factors that may have been overlooked, etc.

Thanks in advance,

Sunthar

P.S. My main reason for sharing this copyrighted (March 2004) material is that it is perhaps at the heart of what is happening on these lists...


Subject:

 OpenRisa is now moderated

From: [John Noyce]

Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004; 7:43 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #3]

Hi all,

I agree with Rajiv and Sunthar, and have altered the settings.

For the time being I'll wear the Moderator's hat, and we'll see how things go.

I also ask that everyone participating in discussions should identify themselves in their first posting.

John Noyce

Independent scholar, Melbourne, Australia

(and postgraduate research student, Centre for the Study of Religion and Theology, Monash University)


Subject:

 Question on focus

From: Rajiv Malhotra

Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004; 8:49 am

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #7]

We all want this to succeed. So one must study how other models failed in order to prevent the same mistakes. We already opened membership to non-academicians, resolving one cause of failure. The moderator will make sure of preventing abuses that are another common cause of failure. But there are other potential problems worth bearing in mind.

If people start to get dozens of emails daily, they will leave or turn to "no-email" mode and become nominal members at best. So how about a quota of N posts per week for any given member—forces each person to be thoughtful and not turn this into a hyperactive chat.

Also, let’s discuss what kind of content is intended here. Examples:

Do we delve into the "categories" and "definitions" being used in the religious studies field - a major issue that I would like to see discussed?

Do we discuss the "politics of knowledge construction and distribution" - also of interest to me, because I feel that postcolonial scholars criticize the dead British Empire but not the living American one presumably because they work for it.

Do we give answers to questions raised on risa-l where the unwashed amongst us are prevented: for instance, someone asked for a book on some topic, and the only ones recommended are not representative of the field today or are about patronizing each other. (Example: Someone wanted a reference on Indian theories of time, and the replies failed to mention a recent book that I feel is the most comprehensive and provocative on this, i.e. the one by C.K. Raju.)

I suggest before posting specific content, let us first discuss meta-level issues, such as those above.

Regards,

Rajiv


Subject:

 Re: Question on focus

From: Rajiv Malhotra

Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004  11:43 am

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #12]

John,

How about specifying a monthly theme to give some contour? My suggestion is that we start with "challenging definitions and categories" as a theme. In particular, I wish the scholars would discuss definitions of various terms that are being used inconsistently today. This list includes the following:

Religious Fundamentalism: Is this same as exclusivism, or literal historical interpretation of canons, or what?

Religious Tolerance: Must not be confused with mutual respect. (Muslim theologians told me they can tolerate Hinduism, but are prevented from giving it legitimacy by substituting mutual respect in lieu of tolerance - Needs clarification.)

Secularism: Differentiate from pluralism. Is secularism a pseudo-Christian category as believed by many? What would be equivalent Hindu, Muslim, etc ideas?

Nationalism: Is every political leader of USA, Europe, Japan, China, etc. a nationalist of his/her country (along with other politicians, etc.)? If so, why are "Indian Nationalists" problematized as a category - what makes them different? Is USA's outsourcing ban a case of American Nationalism, for instance?

Religious Nationalism: When does the dominant religion's importance cross the threshold into religious nationalism? Is Bush a Christian Nationalist - we don't have our scholars describe him as such, so what is the objective criteria?

Communalism: Are only majority religions capable of communalism? Can there be (and is there) also minority communalism? What are the objective criteria?

Human Rights: Do cultures also have rights to prevent their eradication, such as religions, languages, etc.? Or do only individuals have rights? If the latter, then it's okay if a culture gets eradicated while individuals eat McDonalds, wear Nike, and consume Pepsi, because biologically they are better off.

Religious Freedom: By what criteria is this to be defined? Is intrusive marketing a violation of the target's freedom, especially if there is an imbalance of power? Is the eradication of native culture a breach of their human rights and hence against freedom?

Describing a faith: If so-called "objective" text analysis contradicts the practitioner's idea of the faith (say in the case of Ganesha's symbolic interpretation) does the text interpretation supersede? Is that an over-privileging of text because of Abrahamic religions' being canonized and history-centric? In other words, what's the importance to be given to non-textual practices and interpretations - dance, rituals, music, yogic experiences, bhakti, etc. that are not necessarily rooted in hermeneutics?

I have problems with many specific terms being (mis)translated into Judeo-Christian "best fit" substitutes. Examples: Atman as soul; Ishvara or Brahman as God; murti as idol; shruti as revealed text; dharma as Law; smriti as Law; etc.

The problem is that this could keep us going for quite some time. The result may well be very useful no doubt, but there must be some discipline to keep it from getting too broad and out of control.

Members should propose suggestions.

Regards,

Rajiv


Subject:

 Identification

From: John Noyce

Date: Sun May 2, 2004; 5:13 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #24]

Greetings all

It is customary on most email lists for participants to identify themselves in their postings. Please do so on OpenRISA.

As of now, anonymous messages will be returned to sender for identification details to be added.

John Noyce

OpenRisa Moderator


Subject:

 Open openrisa archives?

From: Christian Wedemeyer

Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004; 2:14 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #102]

Dear openrisa-friends,

There has been some discussion of this elsewhere of late, and I had wondered about it before myself, so I wonder if I may be excused for bringing up this issue on the list…but why are the openrisa archives closed to non-members?

The archives of both the much-maligned INDOLOGY and RISA-L are open for all to read, as are the archives of (the somewhat-less-but-occasionally-maligned) Yahoo!INDOLOGY.

I would suggest that having an open archive would be a generous and forthright thing for those of us who are members in good standing of openrisa to support. If there are some who object, perhaps the moderator could open a "poll" (one of the Yahoo!groups functions) to gauge the views of the membership.

All the best,

Christian Wedemeyer Chicago, USA


Subject:

 Re: Open openrisa archives?

From: John Noyce

Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004  5:33 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #103]

Yes, there has indeed been discussion of this elsewhere, in at least two places in fact, and I've had one private email also.

I'm against public availability of the openrisa messages simply because we then have the same problem that Risa-l is facing. Namely someone being asked to justify something they wrote six months, two years, five years ago. Now you may say, that's good. And indeed it may well be. However it would seem to me to be obvious that the paucity of discussion on risa-l in recent times has much to do with risa members' heightened awareness of the public nature of their discussions and the consequences that follow from that. Would the same logic apply to the hardy souls that inhabit openrisa?

BTW, public availability of yahoogroup archives means also that Google gets access to the messages too so they are then permanently in the Google cache. So are you all prepared for public access via Google to a message outside of its thread and therefore its context?

I'd appreciate some discussion on this please.

John Noyce

openrisa Moderator


Subject:

 A reminder

From: John Noyce

Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004; 9:15 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #169]

Hi all

Can everyone please remember the focus of this list, namely the academic study of Religions in South Asia.

Discussions of dharma, secularism, and other issues, belong else. They can occur here but only within the specific context of this list.

John Noyce

openRISA Moderator


Subject:

 Re: Open openrisa archives?

From: Rajiv Malhotra

Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004; 7:16 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #106]

I support John Noyce’s policy not to open the archive to non-members.

While risa-l membership is closed to the outcaste like many of us, everyone can join openrisa as a member. Hence, everyone has access to the openrisa archive by simply becoming a member. The same is not true of risa-l, hence it needs to make its archive available to non-members who have been declared shudras by the western classification of who is a scholar and who is not. If and when risa-l throws its membership open, it will no longer need to make a distinction about access to its archive.

Regards,

Rajiv


Subject:

 Re: Open openrisa archives?

From: Arun Gupta

Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004; 7:29 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #107]

--- In openrisa@yahoogroups.com, [John Noyce] wrote:

Yes, there has indeed been discussion of this elsewhere, in at least two places in fact, and I've had one private email also. I'm against public availability of the openrisa messages simply because we then have the same problem that Risa-l is facing. Namely someone being asked to justify something they wrote six months, two years, five years ago. Now you may say, that's good. And indeed it may well be. However it would seem to me to be obvious that the paucity of discussion on risa-l in recent times has much to do with risa members' heightened awareness of the public nature of their discussions and the consequences that follow from that. Would the same logic apply to the hardy souls that inhabit openrisa?

This is an issue only if one would want to say nasty things in private that one would not like to say in public.

-Arun


Subject:

 Opening OpenRISA

From: Anil Bharathi Joshi

Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 10:06 am

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #111]

My name is Anil Joshi. My area of research is High speed high capacity algorithms for solving systems of large sparse linear equations. I am interested in Hindu religion as I have been raised in a hindu brahmin family and have heard/read stories from Hindu/Indian epics and Puranas.

Here is a suggestion for those who are asking to open OpenRISA.

Why don't you start an Open-Open-RISA as opposed to Closed-open-RISA (RISA-L), Open-closed-RISA(openrisa), and several Closed-closed-RISAs? That's the beauty of Internet. It is an open architecture and you can plug-in anything you want into to it. Taking Rajiv Malhotra's anology further, you can create your own Jati (Group) on the open platform of Internet.


Subject:

 Re: Opening OpenRISA...

From: Rajiv Malhotra

Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 11:05 am

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #114]

One should learn from role models of success and not failure. Clearly, openrisa is a successful model. Clearly, closed-risa is a dismal failure, as it refused to change to the new imperative of equality between peoples of different cultures. Its tradition of talking down at the very culture it claims to study and abusing those who seek parity of dialog status with it is by now notorious.

So closed-risa is the one that should learn and emulate openrisa - why should openrisa copy the failed model?

Otherwise, closed-risa will have to close down.

Regards,

Rajiv


Subject:

 Re: Open openrisa archives?

From: Christian Wedemeyer

Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 12:23 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #115]

--- In openrisa@yahoogroups.com, [Vishal Agarwal] wrote:

 I would like to add that people who advocate opening of archives themselves practice censorship. For instance, see the list 'indology' yahoogroup moderated by bushisadork. . .at least 6 Indians have complained in the last month (on IndianCivilization list) that their messages are axed without any reason by the moderator of that list. . . . just like many African Americans in the US just stop fighting against resistance and stop trying further. On the contrary, extremely political and obnoxious messages are allowed by Bushisadork because they seem to be written by westerners. Such people should not preach openness to others, I think.

I reply:

I had hoped this list would restrict itself to its mandate, i.e. the "discussion of matters pertaining to the academic study of Religions in South Asia," and not degenerate into irrelevant personal slander, but. . .

Even though this issue has long since been aired on the IC list and passed beyond by everyone else involved, the unflappable Vishal-ji has taken it upon himself (in the context of "critiquing" my message by reference to myself as messenger) to resurrect his claim that my moderation of Yahoo!INDOLOGY is motivated, not by principle, but by ethnic or religious bias.

This discussion has no place on this list: I would suggest that the moderator of this list should have been more proactive in encouraging Vishal-ji to be more civil.

However, since his message has been approved, and I have now been formally accused on this list by name (or rather Yahoo!ID) of being a bigot, I would just like to draw attention to the following document (freely available to both members and non-members):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/files/Posting%20guidelines.rtf

This outlines in detail the principles for moderation, violation of which resulted in Vishal's postings being rejected. Needless to say, they were not "axed without any reason" and certainly not for the reason he intimates (bias against Indians).

Those of you whose prurient interests would like more on this story, may check he archives of IndianCivilization Yahoo!group, under the thread "Why have I been banned," where I explain why poor Vishal-ji has been banned from that group and Vishal airs his side of the story.

I regret that this subject was raised on this list. I hope in the future this won't happen, and that all discussion will be constructive and civil.

It does raise a further question about the openness of this list (in terms of moderator control), as the *entire* content of Vishal's message is devoted to personal attacks and contains no constructive contribution to discussion. The next paragraph refers aggressively by name to Rupa Viswanath, intimating she is a "terrorist"; the next refers obliquely to the (unnamed) founders of scholarly services.

Did the moderator not read this message? Or does he believe that this is a constructive and helpful contribution to "discussion of matters pertaining to the academic study of Religions in South Asia?" I know that moderation takes place, as one of my own messages was rejected last night (which was fine by me). Let's hope the moderation (both by the moderator and our own self-moderation) holds itself to a higher standard. Overall, the start of this list has been promising. Such lapses portend a degeneration to the level of IC, which would be very, very sad. . .

All the best,

Christian K. Wedemeyer


Subject:

 Re: Open openrisa archives?

From: John Noyce

Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 6:52 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #118]

Yes, I did read the offending message and I wasn’t personally happy with it. However I let it through because

Shri Wedemeyer would be able to give us the background (and he now has); and

It is an example of the anger building within the Hindu diaspora of North America regarding the academic portrayal of their tradition.

That said, we can now return to the more pleasant modes of dialogue which characterized earlier openrisa postings.

And let no one be under any illusions, this moderator does return messages for revision and will continue to do so.

BTW, everyone happy with the group name?

[John Noyce]


Subject:

 Open archives? (Response to Malhotra's argument)

From: Christian Wedemeyer

Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 12:34 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #116]

Since Rajiv has weighed in again on this issue, I assume I may also:

> --- In openrisa@yahoogroups.com, Rajiv Malhotra wrote:

While risa-l membership is closed to the outcaste like many of us, everyone can join openrisa as a member. Hence, everyone has access to the openrisa archive by simply becoming a member. The same is not true of risa-l, hence it needs to make its archive available to non-members who have been declared shudras by the western classification of who is a scholar and who is not. If and when risa-l throws its membership open, it will no longer need to make a distinction about access to its archive.

I reply:

I suppose it is my fault for framing the discussion before in terms of what other lists do. Sorry for that…

Putting that aside: is it too much to suggest that, even though this list was actually created and named in relationship to the existence (and perceived limitations) of RISA-L, it might be more constructive to discuss the issue of open archives independently of that history and anyone's (admittedly regrettable) feelings of shudra-hood?

On a perfectly practical note, even though one can join freely, how is one to decide if one should join, unless one can see the level of discussion? For all a prospective member knows, this list could be a high-volume, low-quality rant list. How are they to know? If they can browse the archives, on the other hand, they can make an informed decision about whether or not to join. Don't we want members who are really interested and committed to the list, not the merely curious?!

Furthermore--even though it might provide a frisson of some sort to make those "evil RISA-L types" (of which, I must admit, I am one) join in order to read what we write here--I would suggest that, if what we write is actually worth reading such that it may enlighten those "Others" to views they otherwise would not confront, shouldn't we (as those enlightened to the "Hindu" virtue of daana--which is ideally a-nimitta, i.e. not self-interested) offer our thoughts generously and sensitively to the world, without expecting recompense in membership numbers or frissons? To do otherwise, I would suggest, is to lower ourselves to "their" (putative) level…

It would be nice if some of the other 140-odd members weighed in on this, though again I think it would be most efficient in the end to take a Yahoo! vote on the issue, after members have been given the opportunity to air a range of helpful and constructive arguments pro and con on the issue.

All the best,

Christian Wedemeyer

Chicago, USA


Subject:

 Re: Open archives? (Response to Malhotra's argument)

From: Rajiv Malhotra

Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 10:01 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #119]

From: Chr. Wedemeyer:

1) On a perfectly practical note, even though one can join freely, how is one to decide if one should join, unless one can see the level of discussion?

RESPONSE: The effort to join is just a few clicks, so its a practical non-issue. The person interested makes an explicit acknowledgment of a break away from closed-risa’s exclusivity claims, i.e. acknowledges that there are “others” out there with agency to speak.

2) Shouldn’t we (as those enlightened to the "Hindu" virtue of daana--which is ideally a-nimitta, i.e. not self-interested) offer our thoughts generously and sensitively to the world, without expecting recompense in membership numbers or frissons?  To do otherwise, I would suggest, is to lower ourselves to "their" (putative) level. . .

RESPONSE:

This has been used as a ploy to exploit Hindus for too long – “you are the lofty vedantin, so give me your lands and wealth, as its all mithya and you don’t want to be burdened with it.” This mentality was glorified by the colonizers, and kshatriya leadership was replaced by morons who could not understand what was in their own best interest.

Imagine preaching to India’s cricket team, “Drop catches, because you should also let the other team score lots of runs, as that proves how open-minded we are.”

Imagine telling corporate India to not go for maximum market-share, because self-less daana proves that we don’t “lower ourselves.”

Imagine telling the soldiers fighting in Kargil, “There is no need to fight because there is no other and all paths lead to truth in the end.”

May I suggest that this Moronization of Indians was the colonialist strategy of breeding of a certain kind of Hindu ethos, which contradicted the earlier ethos of competitiveness of Indians. How else could Indians have been (along with Chinese) in control over most world trade prior to the 18th century, most of the world’s textile and other industries?

The idea that a good Indian is a poor, defeated, dependent pet who must be “kept” by his Western “keepers” must be challenged in the global competitive system.

Bottom line: Lets negotiate what you have to offer before you assume my daana as an unconditional given. Daana is not to be exploited a system of taking us for a ride. We are not suffering from an inferiority complex that requires us to get a certificate of being “good people” from anyone.

So let’s make decisions that are in the best interest of openrisa, and let’s individually continue our personal daana separately. Let’s not forget our collective dharma for the sake of openrisa.

Regards,

Rajiv


Subject:

 Closure?

From: John Noyce

Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004; 4:42 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #170]

Yesterday I posted what I felt was a reasonable request asking everyone to try to stick to core topics.

Today I have 11 pending messages, none of which seem to me to be on core topics.

More seriously I observe from the membership logs that the academics are leaving.

I set this group up as a forum for genuine dialogue between the RISA academics and (for want of a better word) the activists.

In recent days it has become clear that the activists do not want genuine dialogue, merely a platform for their own views.

Convince me I'm wrong guys, otherwise OpenRISA closes...

John Noyce


Subject:

 openrisa is now closed

From: John Noyce

Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004; 4:54 pm

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #171]

I see that Rajiv Malhotra is now circulating an example of what he regards as 'censorship' on this list. No attempt to enter dialogue of course...

openRISA is now closed.

John Noyce

List owner

 


Subject:

 Jnana

From: John Noyce 

Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004  5:45 am

To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #174]

You are receiving this message as a subscriber to opeRISA.

This group has now been renamed 'Jnana' and has a specific focus as outlined on the group front page.

Please read before posting.

John Noyce

opeRISA/Jnana Moderator


Subject: [Abhinava msg #2007order of thread reversed]

 Postings

From: John Noyce 

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004; 8:23 PM

To: jnana@yahoogroups.com

Hi all,

Some comments from the list moderator in the light of recent postings:

1. Would people please be more reflective and less reactive in their postings.

2. Please consolidate your multiple views on the same subject into one message rather than sending several in rapid succession.

3. Please avoid use of futuristic hypothetical examples.

4. Please note that, however righteous you may feel your anger to be at the usage of obscene imagery by an academic writer, this does not legitimate YOUR use of obscene language on this list which others will find offensive.

Regards

John Noyce

Jnana (moderator)


Subject:

 Moderating a discussion group - democracy, kin(g)ship, and regicide on the Internet :-)

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004; 4:08 pm

I have never understood why Rajiv Malhotra is excluded from RISA-L. His critiques have had, and continue to have, a considerable impact on those engaged in the academic study and teaching of religion in South Asia. Please invite him.

John Noyce, RISA-L, Message # 07793 (Sun, 18 Apr 2004)

Moreover, attempts to proselytize on behalf of these causes or perspectives through open online forums invariably fail due to lack of mediation between multiple and opposed viewpoints. This is true even of academic discussion lists run by professional ‘knowledge-workers’—even those of institutionalized and heavily invested disciplines like Orientalism—that are devoted to the ‘’scientific’ analysis of religious traditions. Because their interpretations and even the often tacit assumptions are unacceptable to those who subscribe to the underlying tenets of the traditions under study - i.e., to the ‘objects’ of their discussion - exchanges are often reduced to ‘politically correct’ requests for and communication of bibliographic and other resources for research. The successful forums are precisely those that encourage - through the sensitive yet firm mediation of a skilled moderator - the expression of diverse perspectives within the concerned tradition in such a way as to facilitate engagement with those who do not share its presuppositions but possess vital specialist information, useful analytical methods, and broad comparative perspectives. What we are witnessing is a degree of reflexivity being brought to bear upon the very processes of debate, dialogue, and consensus that has never been possible in previous mediums.

Religious traditions, globalization, and the Internet: problems in cross-cultural communication

Sunthar V., Abhinava msg #1755 (6 April 2004) = Open RISA msg #2 (27 April 2004)

When I first joined the RISA-L list some years ago, it was an interesting place to be, with some robust discussions, which were only moderated when absolutely necessary. Now self-censorship seems to be the norm with an increasing number of topics being ruled out of order by the current moderator and the management committee (no doubt for very good reasons). It seems to me that the academic interchange of information works well currently on RISA-L, but that there needs to be another forum, alongside, for the more contentious issues. And this new forum needs to include those who do not qualify for membership of RISA-L. So here's a suggestion: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openrisa

Please note: this new forum is intended to complement RISA-L, nothing else.

John Noyce, RISA-L, Message # 07835 (Tue, 27 Apr 2004) 

John, I would strongly second Rajiv on the need (see forwarded post below) for a sensitive yet firm moderator (namely yourself)! I would also recommend that you flesh out the forum description so as to provide more focus and some illustrative issues to start the ball rolling.

Sunthar V., Open RISA msg #2 = Abhinava msg #1814 (27 April 2004)

I see that Rajiv Malhotra is now circulating an example of what he regards as 'censorship' on this list. No attempt to enter dialogue of course... Open RISA is now closed.

John Noyce (Moderator, now of 'Jnâna' = Knowledge!), Open RISA, Message # 171 (Tue, 15 June 2004) 

It is with sadness that I key-in this note.

Founded on April 26, 2004.

Closed on June 15, 2004.

Membership: 162

Last message: “I see that Rajiv Malhotra is now circulating an example of what he regards as 'censorship' on this list. No attempt to enter dialogue of course... Open RISA is now closed.” John Noyce, List Owner

It is sad, indeed, that John Noyce's sincere initiative with Sunthar's blessings, to counter RISA could not be sustained.

The blame-game can continue; after all, Hindu is a word of abuse these days, so says, Tavleen Singh.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=48854

Even those who want to promote Hindu dharma think they are helping by abusing (or, is it friendly criticism)? Who knows?

S. Kalyanaraman, “Open RISA now closed” (Tue., 15 June 2004), Abhinavagupta msg #1959

 

 Admin is the janitor, the cop, the mayor, the judge and sometimes even the forum doctor who tends to Warriors injured in battle - in other words, Nanny on steroids. Because he runs the forum and sets the rules Admin has the power to pull the plug on any Warrior who gets a little too frisky. Sometimes his efforts are appreciated, but like any authority figure he is also resented - especially by Jerk, Evil Clown, L'Enfant Provocateur, Ego, Rebel Without a Clue, Yuk Yuk, Troller, and other Warriors who would like to turn the forum into their personal playground. Most Admins are generally fair and even handed, but the adage that absolute power corrupts absolutely is as true on the Internet as it is anywhere else, and it is a rare Admin who can resist bringing the hammer down if seriously pressed by a determined foe. Sycophant and other suckups will also attach themselves to a strong Admin to form a defensive perimeter around him, and more often than not Admin's enemies will be driven off without him ever having to brandish his axe. CAUTION: Admin is the most powerful of all Warriors and drawing him into direct battle invites almost certain defeat. Rebel Leader does pose a limited threat to Admin's power by fomenting a revolt and causing forum members to jump ship.

The Administrator (= Moderator), Flame Warriors 

An Internet forum, as I have already clarified many times before, is not a 'democratic' community but one that has been launched by a specific  individual (even if corporate) entity, who has to invest demanding resources in time, attention, thought, and energy to ensure its success. Hence also the need for very specific rules as to what is permissible by way of scope, content, tone, etc., the application of which will always retain an element of subjectivity. It may be expected that the rules will also gradually evolve along with the nature and composition of the group:

The forum description must be detailed enough so that (not just new) members are not kept guessing as to what posts are permissible and how they could be framed. For the same reason, declined posts ought to be explicitly rejected with a note clarifying what exactly was the nature of the offence and, if possible, how it may be rectified to ensure approval when reposted. Otherwise, the slighted may lose interest.

Like the Hindu king, the moderator embodies the unity and interests of the whole virtual community. To attack him/her personally and/or to foment revolt should, it seems to me, be a matter of last resort, for the consequences of dissolution affect all the members who have voluntarily subscribed to his/her jurisdiction. Even if they agree with the dissent, the likelihood is that such subversion will come back to haunt the Rebel.

Discussion lists that do not systematically archive, consolidate and make readily accessible their past gains are not likely to progress in a manner commensurate with the required investment in time and attention of its members. Otherwise, increase in membership, presumably the barometer of a healthy public-oriented forum, is likely to prove suicidal because new subscribers feel exempted from imbibing the collective mind.

Ultimately, it is an extremely diverse (and even internally conflicted...) virtual community that is going to evaluate the performance of the Moderator in terms of fairness, constructiveness, etc. You cannot overthrow a Tyrant on the Internet but you can always abandon his kingdom at a moment's notice and allow him the solipsistic omnipotence of self-rule! I believe it is in everyone's interest that we do not come to this....

With best wishes to all!

Sunthar

P.S. How is it that those who are most chagrined at the breakdown of an incipient virtual community are often the very (vociferous!) ones who have contributing the most to the subversion of these tenuous bonds - both intellectual and personal - before they can even grow roots?

[Rest of this thread at S. Kalyanaraman, Re: Primitivism, rationality and disenchantment: how do we construct (multiple) non-linear histories?]

 

[Godzilla, Xenophobe, Duelists, Archivist, Jerk, Nanny]


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3001order of thread reversed]

 [Re: Origin of Sanskrit] The blind leading the blind, the loud preaching to the deaf, 'debates' in real-time from a mad-house?

From: David Russell Watson

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:35 AM

With what end in mind, Sunthar, did you cross post this message to the IndianCivilization list?

David

--- In Abhinavagupta@yahoogroups.com, Sunthar Visuvalingam (Feb 15, 2005) wrote:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/2935


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3001]

 [Godzilla, Xenophobe, Duelists, Archivist, Jerk, Nanny]

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:35 AM

It was a peaceful and productive forum; lively, congenial and a bounteous source of useful information. Then one day, completely without warning, Godzilla arose from the depths and blew his scalding breath on everything in his path. A phalanx of Warriors mobilized to attack the monster, only to be crushed like so many toy tanks under Godzilla's mighty feet. Godzilla soon reduced the forum to searing and consuming flames. Just as abruptly, he rumbled back beneath the waves, leaving all to tremble in fear of his return. Net life would never be the same. Sadly, many netizens who survive a Godzilla attack will become Xenophobes.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_66.php

 

Xenophobe is usually a long-term discussion forum participant and he thinks of the forum as his private compound. Xenophobe regards newbies to his forum as mentally deficient and perhaps even having criminal tendencies, and they are invariably approached with suspicion and condescension. If a Newbie has the temerity to make critical observations about the forum's social dynamics, or questions prevailing opinion, Xenophobe will attempt to silence or drive out the newcomer.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_47.php

 

In a perpetual closed-loop feud, the Duelists generally don't menace anyone but each other, unless, of course, another Warrior foolishly attempts to mediate. Like the Hatfields and McCoys, they probably don't even remember the source of their mutual animus, nonetheless they enthusiastically loathe one another and seize every opportunity to exchange vitriol. When the other Warriors eventually weary of their endless kvetching the Duelists will be shouted down or Nanny will ban them. Even after getting the heave-ho from one forum, however, it is not unusual for them to find each other in another discussion group and the fighting will begin anew. Hate is sometimes as mysterious as love...

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_69.php

 

Archivist saves and squirrels away each and every discussion forum message. Do you remember having a bad day back in 1996 when in one of your messages you may have said a few things that were...well, perhaps a little...hasty? Don't worry, Archivist still has it and will post it to the forum if you begin to get the upper hand in battle. Archivist can be a very effective and fearsome Warrior.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_40.php

 

Jerk is sarcastic, mean, unforgiving and never misses an opportunity to make a cutting remark. Jerk's repulsive personality quickly alienates other Warriors, and after some initial skirmishing he is usually ostracized. Still, Jerk is very happy to participate in electronic forums because in cyberspace he is free to be himself...without the risk of getting a real-time punch in the mouth.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_33.php

 

Nanny tirelessly monitors forum discussions and makes it his mission to see to it that everyone behaves. While he is quick to admonish for off-topic messages and petty squabbling, he is generally rather slow to anger. Nanny rarely wades into pitched battles, rather he simply pulls the plug on combatants. Often Nanny becomes the unwitting ally to the intrigues of Rat and Crybaby.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_11.php

You are certainly not the first 'immigrant' and probably not the last, David, from the (xenophobe?) 'Indian Civilization' community smuggling in and attempting to 'settle' long-standing scores from elsewhere on the Abhinavagupta forum. M. Kelkar had complained here about Francesco's 'anti-Hindu' critiques there of OIT, and the latter likewise forwarded to us a splash from Kalyan's 'anti-Christian' tsunami (luckily most members here are protected from its brunt by this nanny's 'barrage'...i.e., you don't even get to see most of these disruptive posts!). It is a fact of online socializing these days that netizens belong simultaneously to several groups and invariably end up replicating their (personal and) partisan issues across all of them. The most effective way of preserving the sanity of this list is to trace the roots of such dissension back to their breeding-ground and expose the unwelcome consequences before the originating community.

In short, even Godzillas thrown out of other 'xenophobic' forums are welcome here, provided they've learnt how to keep themselves on a leash :-)

Sunthar

P.S. You might gradually discover the benefits of cross-posting (see Guidelines), if you stick around long enough...

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (20 June 04),

“Moderating a discussion group - democracy, kin(g)ship and regicide on the Internet :-)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/messages/2007]

Which flame-warrior am I? Diagnosing multiple personality disorders across the Internet

 


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3002order of thread reversed]

 [Which Flame Warrior am I?  - diagnosing multiple personality disorders across the Internet ;-)]

From: Radhakrishna Warrier

Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 5:33 PM

That was fantastic Sunthar.

Come to think of it, isn't there in me a little of the Godzilla, the Xenophobe, the Duelist, the Archivist, the Jerk, and perhaps the Nanny?  I am all of these rolled into one, I feel sometimes.  But as the old Hindi song goes:

  Na mein bhagwaan hoon, na mein shaitaan hoon ..

  thoda sa nek hoon, thoda be-imaan hoon..

  duniya jo chaahe samjhe,

  main to insaan (God forbid, not insane) hoon :-).

Thanks and regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

P.S.  The translation of the song is left to the netizens of this list who are experts in Hindi/Urdu.

[Response to Sunthar's post (3 March 05),

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3001]


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3002]

 Which Flame Warrior am I? [Pithy Phrase and Therapist]

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

 “I'm not God, nor am I Satan...

rather well-intentioned and just a little bit dishonest...

Let the world believe whatever it wants,

I am but a [sane? - SV] human being :-)”

 

Pithy Phrase is a walking compendium of famous quotations and wise adages [even in Hindi! - SV]. Of course, he will never add anything original to the discussion, but because most discussion forums communicate through e mail he can take his time to thumb through books of quotes and find les mots justes for every situation. Er...didn't Winston Churchill say, “It's a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.”? Digital forums are a gift to the slow witted (I said that).

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_52.php

Hello Radha,

You're welcome and you certainly got the point that my own 'flame' was not really directed at anyone in particular, because we all change our 'warrior' personas from day to day (not to mention from forum to forum...depending what and just how much we've got invested...)!

Regards,

Sunthar

Therapist can be a highly annoying and therefore very effective Warrior. Instead of making a frontal attack, Therapist attempts to shift the focus of the conflict to the combatants' psychological motivations and problems. He will freely speculate about other Warriors' insecurities, personalities, and relationships, but he will almost never directly engage the subject of the dispute. CAUTION: Evil Clown, Imposter, and Troller often masquerade as Therapist.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_24.php

Profundus Maximus, Newbie, Eagle Scout, and Howlers: the tribulations of the Hierophant

As the cyber-equivalent of Hyde Park, the Internet allows every would-be messiah and crackpot to preach his gospel and the lost flocks gather from across whole world (-wide-web) around the new watering-hole not so much for the profound insights and the incentive to think for oneself but because their deep-rooted prejudices and sense of superiority receive a low-cost ‘scientific’ or religious veneer from the shepherd. There are even willing ‘disciples’ […] On the basis of the family resemblances between Sanskrit Indo-Aryan languages


Subject: [Abhinava msg #2945]

 The Hierophant

From: S. Sathia

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:02 AM

Dear Friends,

I am a newcomer to the Abhinavagupta group.

The picture of Hierophant at the website of Abhinavagupta group caught my interest. As one of my hobbies involves finding cognates between English and Tamil, I wondered what could be a Tamil cognate for this.

This is what I propose:

> 

[Sathia's full post is at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/2945]

> 

  I am happy to be in Tiruppati.

  Regards,

  Sathia

 

[Prompted by David's post (Oct 29, 2004),

“[Re: Origin of Sanskrit] The blind leading the blind, the loud preaching to the deaf, 'debates' in real-time from a mad-house?”

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/2935]


“Eagle Scout is a positive, constructive Warrior who endeavors to submit original articles which contain useful content and relevant information with supporting citations and links, thus initiating meaningful discussion threads. Eagle Scout regards the Internet as an uplifting, egalitarian, worldwide arena for the exchange of ideas among intelligent, thinking individuals. He does not openly attack, but will (ever tactfully) chastise disruptive comments, gratuitous insults, and cretinous insipidity. He is always kind and helpful to Newbie, and will shrug off even the most egregious insults. Eagle Scout is loathed with a poisonous intensity by Evil Clown, Jerk, L'Enfant Provocateur and Ego. CAUTION: Sometimes Imposter, Evil Clown or Troller will masquerade as Eagle Scout. There have also been reports of Eagle Scout becoming Jekyll and Hyde.”

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_63.php

 

Dear Sathia,

I've never come across any Indian having 'Tiruppati' as his personal name, other than as a qualifying place name, e.g., Palghat Mani Iyer, Lalgudi Jayaraman, Madurai Somasundaram, Umayalpuram Shivaraman, OothukaaDu VenkaTa Subbaiyar (to draw my examples only from illustrious Carnatic musicians).

Perhaps you are thinking rather (under the hypnotic spell of Loga's thesis of 'Rig-krit' being derived from 'Simian' Tamil?) of the common name of TripAThI among North Indian brahmins? Unfortunately, 'tri-' (now we're really speaking English!) is used consistently in Sanskrit to mean 'three' (mUnRu ou mu- in Tamil...), and -pAThI means 'reader' (from the root -paTh = 'to recite'); in other words, a TripAThI is one whose ancestors were supposed to have mastered 3 of the Vedas, as contrasted to DvivedI (2) and CaturvedI (4).

Of course, if one of our Tripathi friends from Benares were living in Tamil Nadu, he might find it more convenient to introduce himself as, for example, Tiruppati Kamalesh Datta, “sacred preceptor and/or preceptor of the sacred” (Vedas). After all, at the International House at the Benares Hindu University, I knew one Tamil “man of gold” (Ponnuswamy) who had assumed the rather aristocratic-sounding 'French' name of 'Sammy du Pon'! [Dupont?] So if a sufficient number of the clan had migrated South to become priests (in the same way that the BhaTTas from KarNATaka have taken over Pazupati-nAth in Katmandu), we may have by now come to believe instead that Tiruppati is in reality the sacred (hiero-) 'abode' (pati) of the (Vedic) Tripathis who grant us (Sumero-?) Tamils the 'darzan' (-phant - from fai`nein) of the Truth (mey-kAndal?)!

As you say, “a word can have several meanings even within one language...my derivation is just one of several possibilities,” far more abundant and imaginative ones being readily found in Akandabaratam, where you are perhaps more likely to find the real Tiruppati!

Happy philologizing!

Sunthar

[Rest of this thread at Malarvizhi (March 5th, 2005)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabaratam/message/16080]


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3003order of thread reversed]

 Re: The Hierophant

From: Ganesan

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:30 AM

To: Abhinavagupta@yahoogroups.com

Is there no limit to such unimaginably wild idiotic phantasms?

What is the achievement?

Ganesan


Subject:

 Re: The Hierophant [Profundus Maximus and Howlers]

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005; 2:30 am

 

Profundus Maximus eagerly holds forth on all subjects, but his thin knowledge will not support a sustained assault and therefore his attacks quickly peter out. Profundus Maximus often uses big words, obscure terms and...ahem...even [Sumero-Tamil! - SV] to bluff his way through battle.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_15.php

 

Howlers generally populate academic, technical or special interest forums [like IndianCivilization, French Institute of Indology? - SV] in which particular issues are discussed. Newbies to such forums often wander in thinking they have found some devastating new argument that contradicts accepted wisdom on the forum topic. Of course, if the forum is a long-standing and active discussion group it will probably have heard and debated the argument at length, so instead of reviving a dead topic Howlers will simply shout and throw excrement until the intruder leaves.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_48.php

Hello Sathia,

Since you requested my opinion on 'Sumero-Tamil', I'll just summarize my points:

Any Profundus Maximus can 'prove' that his mother-tongue is the mother of all tongues (even English) through haphazard sound resemblances that can be found between any two languages. What is required to convince the impartial are systematic sound correspondences (e.g., demonstrated between Mande and Dravidian).

Loga doesn't have even the most elementary notion of Sanskrit (e.g., how to separate the prefix/suffix from the stem of a noun, and the root of the latter). How then can he claim to 'derive' these words from 'Sumero-Tamil'? Abhinava indulges in 'pseudo-etymologizing' to drive home a valid idea, our 'linguist' simply 'doctors' his 'evidence' to glorify his own ancestry.

Why not explore the interaction between Munda and Dravidian (even before the prevalence of 'Indo-Aryan') instead of embarking on a wild-goose chase in Sumeria? For we know of ethnic Dravidians speaking Munda-related languages and vice-versa (though we don't know for sure when these contacts began).

My own suspicion is that Tamil (Dravidian) has evolved not just under the impact of Sanskrit (and northern Prakrits), and before that of Munda, but of (some variant of) the language spoken by the elite of the Indus civilization (but is not identical to the latter).

The Indus tongue may have been related to Sumerian in some way (due to immigration from there), but this language and culture has likewise left its traces on so many other divergent civilizations that characterizing it as 'Sumero-Tamil' is not so much a reflection of 'sound' linguistics but of an inferiority complex (on the part of alienated Malaysian Tamils?)...

I think the elusive relations between Sumerian and Indian (not just Tamil) civilization (not just language) deserves to be pursued, but Dr. Loga seems hell-bent on discrediting any such enterprise once and for all...

Regards,

Sunthar

P.S. Sathia unsubscribed on 18 Feb 05 even before any excrement could taint him, but I'll dutifully forward the package to Akandabaratam nonetheless....

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (17 May 2003),

Is Sanskrit an areal effect of Tamil on 'Indo-European'?  Kumârila and (sv-)Abhinava on the ('scientific') art of (pseudo-) etymologizing!”

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/770]

Political correctness (Weenie), subaltern rights (Ethnix), cyber-identity (Impostor): a comedy of errors?

Akandabaratam (‘Undivided India’), devoted to a ‘Dravidian’ understanding of Agamic Hinduism that is anti-brahmanical in tenor, is dominated by the Tamil diaspora, whereas the much larger IndianCivilization Yahoo! Group propagates a Veda-oriented ‘orthodoxy’ (dharma) that is championed above all by 


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3017order of thread reversed]

 Fwd: [NavyaShastra] Re: The Times of India

From:  Nisala Rodrigo

Date:  Wed Mar 9, 2005; 11:42 am

To:

 

 

Leave it to a soul like Venkat to evade the substance of the question

and squeak a meaningless platitude of a definition for “Hindu.” I

had asked why the VHP [Vizva Hindu PariSad] is generously giving the untouchables their

beloved status back upon reconversion, *observing* that their wealthy

white counterparts do not gain a caste through conversion. I would

add that those who do, such as Danielou (whose translation of

Manimekalai would lead me to question his “scholarship”) would not

actually live in a society where their new caste would have a social

context. Vel gave the most logical answer - that these untouchables

would have their rights of reservation restored and they could make the most of it.

 

If I wanted a definition of “Hindu,” I certainly wouldn't accept one

coming from an established phony and liar.

 

Nisala

 

PS: If Venkat would like to respond to this insidious and

unwarranted accusation, he is free to use either his

pretentious “history judge” or his Malarvizhi “Tamil Dalit Christian

who loves Sanskrit but hates Loga” surrogate.

 

New packaging, same product: fraud. Try harder next time! -:)

 


From:  Malarvizhi

Date:  Wed Mar 9, 2005  8:26 pm

Subject:  KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

 

Dear Moderator,

 

I was planning not to post anything to any e-forum for quite some

time due to the personal reasons that I mentioned in my previous

posts. But I am forced to send this post because of message number

16161 that appeared on the Akandabaratam board from the poster who

identifies himself/herself as Nisala. Did you see the post? If

not, I reproduce below the relevant portion to which I take the

strongest offence. You have unsubscribed Shri Ram for a much

milder “offence”. What do you propose to do with this poster?

He/she has made utterly baseless allegations against two members of this forum.

 

It was but the other day that another member left this forum in a

huff saying this poster is sick and he didn't want to take part in

any of this “insanity.”

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, [Nisala Rodrigo] wrote:

> 

> ...

> PS: If Venkat would like to respond to this insidious and

> unwarranted accusation, he is free to use either his

> pretentious “history judge” or his Malarvizhi “Tamil Dalit Christian

> who loves Sanskrit but hates Loga” surrogate.

> 

> New packaging, same product: fraud. Try harder next time! -:)

> 

 

I have no idea what the provocation from my side was for the poster

to make such a baseless allegation against me. Is it because I am

Dalit? And because I am a woman too? I thought such sentiments were

the prerogative of the Dravidianist. It seems the prejudice against

Dalits/women has crossed the sea and reached the Buddhist Sinhala

heartland, if the poster's identification of himself/herself as a

Buddhist Sinhala is to be believed. In another post he/she made

some vulgar remarks specifically naming me. I am not as uncivilized

as him/her to reproduce it here. Seeing this post, I am led to

believe that he/she really is a prachhanna (Skt. “in disguise”) Dravidianist.

 

The poster also alleges that I “hate Loga”. Did I anytime, anywhere

say anything hateful about you, Dr. Loganathan? Is refuting another

person's arguments equivalent to hating that person? Is that the

attitude of the members of this board? Can't one debate and discuss

on this forum without having to put up with vile and vulgar personal

insults of this sort? Is it the standard of civility that you want

to maintain in this forum? You be the judge, Dr. Loganathan.

 

Thanks,

Malarvizhi

 


From:  K. Loganathan

Date:  Wed Mar 9, 2005  9:03 pm

Subject:  Re: [akandabaratam] KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

Dear Malar

 

You certainly don't hate me and from your words I also feel that you have the highest  regards for me. I know Nisala for a long time though I am not personally acquinted with him.  I also has the same respect and which is mutual.

 

I will let him to explain the matter.

 

Any way let me assure that I don't doubt your identity and I respect it. You are always welcome to post your views when you are free to do so.

 

As a moderator I give the maximum freedom- Nisala is still here and you can always question him. There is a minimum of some ethics and only when these are breached I very reluctnatly unsubscribe them. I admit also that sometimes it is difficult

 

I must also mention to you that Kalavai Vengkat has hurt too many scholars with his obstinacy  Brahmanism and undisguished hatred for Dravidianists. He would consider me a Dravidanist.

 

I have learned to ignore him as I know better the Sacred Tamil literature to assert positively that there is no support at all for [varNâzhrama-dharma = 'caste-system'] there . If he keeps on saying the contrary, I just give up having met an impasse but without denying his rights to post to akandabaratam.

 

Loga

 


From:  Kalavai Venkat

Date:  Wed Mar 9, 2005  10:01 pm

Subject:  Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

Now, Nisala, in his eternal wis(h?)dom, has pronounced Malarvizhi to

be my surrogate! A little knowledge of validating user source

might've helped but then he might consider knowledge as shirk.

Fantasy should be considered the staple diet of a list dedicated to

Sumero-Tamil. I don't interpret his accusation as either 'insidious'

or 'unwarranted'. It must seen as a symptom. Nisala might be

exhibiting the typical symptoms of an organically based perceptual

aberration or deficit syndrome that the eminent neuroscientist

Oliver Sacks eloquently discusses. But Nisala might turn out to be

challenging even for Sacks because he displays unpredicatable

patterns of deficit syndrome. Just 2 days ago, he appreciated

Malarvizhi for raising interesting thoughts, next apologized to her

for bracketing her with me (I am the ultimate paraiah, you see!),

then warned her not to trust me and finally today Malarvizhi has

merged with me. The Buddha would've surely advocated the middle path

for Nisala. But Kerry would be surely impressed with these

unpredictable flip-flops. Nisala must run for the next democratic convention. :-)

 

My sarcastic allusion to

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/72076

 

with respect to the VHP [Vizva Hindu PariSad] was lost on Nisala but that is usual given the

prognosis. Nisala wonders why VHP doesn't confer any varna status on

white converts to Hinduism. Simple (that is, if you don't think like

a Sumero-Tamil): VHP hasn't converted whites in any organized manner. :-)

 

Alain Danielou lived in India for decades. Unless he too suffered

from the same syndrome that Nisala likely has, he would've

experienced the social context, no? Danielou's admiration for the

varNa-jâti system has earned him Nisala's ire. Or, it could be just

a mindless fury of a marauding Hun directed at a sober scholar. We

will diagnose soon. His translation of Manimekhalai, jointly

authored by the eminent Tamil and early Tamil Buddhism scholar T V

Gopala Iyer has been damned. Of course, so long as one writes in

Akandabaratam anything can be dumped without providing reasonable

arguments. In fact, one can pass judgements without even having the

ability to read and comprehend ancient texts. But, I thought that

Danielou's acceptance of AIT and the credits he gave the Dravidian

culture, would've made him a darling here!

 

Dr. Loga laments that I have hurt the sensibilities of many with

my “obstinacy Brahmanism and undisguished hatred for

Dravidianists,” and wonders if I would consider him a Dravidianist.

What else would you call an EVR bhakta if not a Dravidianist? What

else would you call a brahmin-hater and Sanskrit-hater if not a

Dravidianist? Is the world under any compulsion to disguise its

hatred for Nazi or Communists? So, why should I disguise my contempt

for Dravidianists? It is always amusing to see practitioners of vile

ideologies like Dravidianism complain of ...... ah......offended sensibilities. :-)

 

As usual, Dr. Loga claims that there was no varnasrama in ancient

Tamil society. As usual, he failed to substantiate his bogus claim

that bhakti saints condemned varnasrama. On my part, I have cited

the exact words of the same bhakti saints and Sangam poets that

glorified varNâzrama. The last time I did so in

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabaratam/message/16138

 

and as usual, you dodged. Now, for your benefit, I will speak very

s...l....o...w...l...y: Ancient TN was the most varNâzramic. If you

don't like varNâzrama, get ready to disown Sangam and bhakti literature.

 

Thanks.

 

[Kalavai Venkat]

 


From:  Vel Murugan

Date:  Wed Mar 9, 2005  11:00 pm

Subject:  Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Malarvizhi wrote:

> 

> Dear Moderator,

> 

> I was planning not to post anything to any e-forum for quite some

> time due to the personal reasons that I mentioned in my previous

> posts. But I am forced to send this post because of message number

> 16161 that appeared on the Akandabaratam board from the poster who

> identifies himself/herself as Nisala. Did you see the post? If

> not, I reproduce below the relevant portion to which I take the

> strongest offence. You have unsubscribed Shri Ram for a much

> milder “offence”. What do you propose to do with this poster?

> He/she has made utterly baseless allegations against two members of this forum.

> 

> It was but the other day that another member left this forum in a

> huff saying this poster is sick and he didn't want to take part in

> any of this “insanity.”

> 

> 

 

Your timely defense of Mr.Kalavai Vengattu, the bigoted manuvaadi, who

never had the courage to face his opponents in his own forum, is quite

admirable, though not unexpected.

 

I was hoping that you would come to answer the original question of

Nisala about the conversion/reversion and restoration of the

'untouchablity' status. Not unexpectedly, you did not show up.

The general observer would have thought that such a topic should be

very close to your heart. Surprise, surprise, you were nowhere to be

found. I suppose, once you master Sanskrit in a mere 3 years, you

automatically reach the manuvaadi dwijahood. A 3 year course in

Sanskrit surely transforms people into Oreo cookies (of sorts)!

 

You remind me of an individual who used to claim he was only twenty

five and had alread mastered, everything in the Universe and yet

decided to pursue a Ph.D at UC Berkeley. Though he was a bigoted dvija ['twice-born']

he claimed he still had a crush for a Pakistani Muslim girl.. so on so

forth. And then one day, we all discovered he was just a plain fraud.

 

Now tell me, where did you learn the term 'Dravidianist' ? To my

knowledge it was introduced by our very own Kalavai Vengattu. Other

than the bigoted, like Kalavai himself, no one else that I know of has

used the term.

 

And my last question would be about how you normally spell

opportunity? May be this is your best opportunity to send all doubting

thomases to Sindhu Sarasvathi Vedic wonderland.

 

Vel Murugan

 


From:  K. Thanappan

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  3:05 am

Subject:  Re: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

Dear moderator, please note that people like Vel Murugan belong to the fascist and criminal gang of Dravidian movement which doesn't accept freedom of worship, freedom of expression but only wants its brand of fascist Dravida theories to be accepted by Tamilians. Fortunately, Tamils are too smart to kick out the Dravida ideologies out.

 

[K. Thanappan]

 


From:  K. Loganathan

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  3:21 am

Subject:  Re: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

Dear K. [Thanappan],

 

No you are totally mistaken about Vel Murukan. I know him long enough to learn that he is not a fascist or casteist though certainly critical of Brahmanism and religion in general. But why blame him when in the name of religion mass murders and such other evils are done ?

 

If I am not mistaken you are the one who boasts about the Vanniyar jati. Is this necessary?

 

Why bring in the Dravida Kazakam which has nothing to do with the issues at hand?

 

If you want to criticize Periyar and his philosophy, feel free to do so separately.

 

Loga


From:  Nisala Rodrigo

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005; 11:10 am

Subject:  Re: Kind Attention Moderator

 

 

> You remind me of an individual who used to claim he was only twenty

> five and had alread mastered, everything in the Universe and yet

> decided to pursue a Ph.D at UC Berkeley. Though he was a bigoted dvija

> he claimed he still had a crush for a Pakistani Muslim girl.. so on so

> forth. And then one day, we all discovered he was just a plain fraud.

 

Hey... this person sounds very similar to a fellow I met. He had

claimed that through his doctoral research, he would be able to

determine Indian national policy by inventing a shield against

nuclear weapons. Maybe it's just a coincidence?

 

Nisala

 


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3017]

 On Weenies, Ethnixes, and Impostors - check out our svAbhinava dialogue on 'caste confusion' (varNa-sankara), (cyber-) acculturation, and (mistaken?) identity

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005; 12:28 pm

Weenie is a very sensitive guy, and it angers him that everyone isn't as sensitive as he. A soi-disant male feminist, he not only cares deeply about women's issues, he's concerned about poverty, people of color, gay rights, and sea turtles. Weenie strives to be politically correct at all times and is ever vigilant against anti progressive attitudes. Weenie is always solicitous towards the oppressed classes, but will lash out viciously at retrograde brutes such as Deacon and Troglodyte.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_05.php

 

Ethnix is an extremely powerful Warrior who effectively exploits [her] minority status and the general nervousness about race [caste, and gender? -SV] to gain advantage in battle. Ethnix deftly wields [her] ethnicity [gender] and can instantly shift from defense to offense, keeping even the most skillful Warriors off balance. Impostor, covetous of [her] power, often impersonates Ethnix, but he can seldom maintain the ruse. While all Warriors are wary of Ethnix, [she] is most feared by Weenie.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_55.php

 

Impostor is a digital Proteus who changes his persona whenever it suits his purposes. That 21 year old co-ed from Arizona State you met in a discussion forum may, in fact, be a retired steel worker from Pittsburgh. Impostor will claim to be black, white, rich, poor, young, old, straight, or gay, and if he's good he can pull it off - at least for a while. Of course, there are sinister, even criminal reasons Impostor would lie about who he is, but more often he fakes it to lend weight to his arguments, or simply to amuse himself. Impostor's requisite imagination and good writing skills can make him a formidable enemy, but even the best of this Warrior class will eventually blunder and reveal their true identity. Once uncovered, Impostor will always flee, but he may return in another form - you just never know...

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_53.php

Dear Malarvizhi,

You might find this digest on “Caste, racism, assimilation, and multiculturalism: the politics of acculturation” (still being compiled) of interest...

http://www.svabhinava.org/HinduCivilization/Dialogues/CasteAcculturation-frame.htm

Best wishes,

Sunthar

P.S. Now you know why I'm becoming increasingly vigilant in moderating this Abhinavagupta forum with such “KIND ATTENTION”....

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (Mar 6, 2005)

Threads at svAbhinava and the forum archives on caste, Sanskrit (Tamil), Afro-Dravidian ethnicity“]


Ferrous Cranus, Grenade, Klaxon, Evil Clown


 

From:  [Nisala Rodrigo

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  12:45 pm

Subject:  Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

 

Dr. Loganathan,

 

> You certainly don't hate me and from your words I also feel that

> you have the highest regards for me. I know Nisala for a long time

> though I am not personally acquainted with him. I also have the same

 

> respect and which is mutual. I will let him explain the matter.

 

I will be happy to explain. If you look at Vel Murugan's response

to "Malarvizhi," you will see that I'm not the only one who has

suspected Venkat and "Malar" as being one and the same. The sad

thing is, Venkat created "Malarvizhi" entirely for the purpose of attacking YOU.

 

"Malarvizhi" appeared right at the same time that Venkat decided to

announce his presence in akandabaratam. That alone surely meant

nothing. If you look at my original messages to that character, I

made no accusations; I did not even suspect anything amiss. I felt

it was too good to be true that someone came with a different view,

other than "Brahmins and Sanskrit are evil and anti-Tamil."

 

Look at #16080 & #16098. "Malarvizhi" wastes no time revealing what

his true intention is: to argue against not only your present

SumeroTamil ideas, but also the claims you will make in the *future*

(using "sound, well reasoned arguments"). I can understand one

criticizing your *present* ideas... but who in the world would have

the gall to refute your *FUTURE* posts????? It would surely have to

be someone who has such a low opinion of you, Loga, that you would

not have the intelligence to change your views and learn. You

told "Malar" yourself that his sort of arguments are "NOT new" to you.

 

Probably the next question you will ask yourself, Loga, is, "Why

would Venkat use a false identity to criticize my views, when he is

already criticizing my views (derisively) himself?" The answer, as

you've hinted below, is that nobody (except for his fellow

ideologues) takes him seriously. Some attack Venkat simply because

he is a Brahmin and praises Sanskrit. For others, who see beyond

caste, linguistic, and religious identity, Venkat truly becomes

an "outcaste" due to his lies and hypocrisy, as someone who "never

had the courage to face his opponents in his own forum."

 

In #16114 to "Malar," I tried to indirectly give Venkat a hint that

the game was up, referring to his telltale "Venkatisms" which no

false identity could hide. Neither gave a reply. It was only after

I took the gloves off that "Malar" took time from his busy schedule to protest!

 

In this message to you, Venkat once again characteristically tries to

divert our attention. He accuses me of being anti-woman and anti-

Dalit. He also mentions that I claim to be Sinhalese and Buddhist.

Now, where have I made such a claim???? In #16114 I mentioned that I

am not Tamil. In #15977 I talked about words in the Sinhalese

vocabulary and about Sri Lankan paleology. If one knew enough

linguistics, he could tell that 'Nisala' is not an Indian name and

thus infer that I am Sinhalese. However, I have never stated my

religion here! In a few earlier, unrelated posts, I described

Buddhism in India and elsewhere, among other topics such as Tamil

literature and Saiva Siddhantha in Sri Lanka. How could one infer

from these posts that I am a Buddhist, especially when most Sri

Lankans with the surname "Rodrigo" are Catholic???

 

So how could "Malarvizhi" conclude that I am Sinhala Buddhist?? He

would have to be someone who knows from prior experience what my

identity is: Venkat.

 

> Any way let me assure that I don't doubt your identity and I

> respect it. You are always welcome to post your views when you are

> free to do so.

 

And this is the supreme irony. Venkat will continue to openly lie,

invent identities, and write whatever garbage he wants, because he

wants to show us all the drawbacks of having an unmoderated forum.

What he doesn't apparently understand, though, is that in such

a "free-for-all," one has the freedom to show his or her greatest

insights or most pathetic ignorance. In Venkat's case, he has used

this "oppurtunity" (sic) to demonstrate for everyone his capacity for

deception. Nobody needs to take my word for it, or Vel's. They can

see for themselves!

 

 

> As a moderator I give the maximum freedom - Nisala is still here and

> you can always question him. There is a minimum of some ethics and

> only when these are breached I very reluctantly unsubscribe them. I

> admit also that sometimes it is difficult

 

Would the breach of minimum ethics include inventing a false identity

to serve one's own purpose? Smearing the names of all decent Tamil

Christian Dalit women who have learned Sanskrit, by hijacking their identity?

 

I praise your idealism, your willingness to believe that "Malar" is

who he really claims to be. The worst thing would be if Venkat was

banned, which would deprive us of the entertainment of this charade.

 

> I must also mention to you that Kalavai Venkat has hurt too many

> scholars with his obstinacy, Brahmanism and undisguised hatred for

> Dravidianists.

 

Obstinacy is not a crime, in my eyes, if it is guided by truth and

honor. When it is driven by deception, then it must be the deception

which must be exposed.

 

Nisala

 


 

From:  [Nisala Rodrigo]

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  1:13 pm

Subject:  Fwd: [NavyaShastra] Re: The Times of India

 

 

> In his usual inimitable style, our sudhra brahmana Kalvai Vengattu,

> has avoided addressing the main issue and has expounded on the

> irrelevant issues. No surprise here.

 

Key word is "usual." It is no surprise, when Venkat scrambles to

cover his poorly-concealed tracks by alluding to a "Buddhist Sinhala"

prejudice against women and Dalits. It is tragic that he forgot to

separate his knowledge of my identity from his surrogate's!!!!

 

Nor is it a surprise, that when push comes to shove, both the Venkat

and the surrogate coincidentally try to bring in the Buddhist

identity-baiting, since there is nothing else in their (his)

arguments which smacks of substance.

 

And what was he trying to accomplish, by calling me a 'hidden

Dravidianist?' Now that's a mystery to ponder!

 

> Oh well, what else should I expect of Kalavai Vengattu?

 

Well, we now know that lying is a skill that does not necessarily

improve with practice!

 

Nisala

 


From:  K. Loganathan

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  7:35 pm

Subject:  Re: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

Dear Nisala

 

 

The lies can never hold and the liers soon get exposed. If Kalavai is lying and trying to disturb Akandabaratam with some sinister motives, it will be exposed.. Way back in Tamil net some brahmins also indulged in such games. They do not accomplish anything. When I started meykandar egroups I had to face the same problem in a different way. Well it did nothing and meykandar is  still around and doing well.

 

 

Now if what you say is true, it just shows how panicky some smartha Brahmins have become. It is a sign that my theses [that] Sumerian is Archaic Tamil and that [Sanskrit] is just a variant of it are beginning to hit them. They just can't remain indifferent to these claims. In saying it is silly, mad and so forth spending so much time and useless passions, they must be perceiving substantial truth in what I say.

 

So let the play go on. It will come to a stop when the lies, if there are lies, get exposed.

 

 

Meanwhile let Kalavai write so that the scholalry world gets a first hand account of how vile and filthy some Smartha Brahmins can be.

 

 

It appears to me such that Brahmins are getting exposed everywhere by way of puryfying Hinduism from the millenniums of lies that Brahmanism has perpetuated.

 

Let me assure you that my studies will continue as usual and such tricks will have the least impact on my studies

 

I am in TRUTH and therefore nothing to fear.

 

Loga

 


From:  Malarvizhi

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  8:33 pm

Subject:  Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Vel Murugan wrote:

> 

> Your timely defense of Mr. Kalavai Vengattu, the bigoted manuvaadi, who

> never had the courage to face his opponents in his own forum, is quite

> admirable, though not unexpected.

 

 

How does my denial of an allegation become become Kalavai's "timely

defence":-)

 

 

> I was hoping that you would come to answer the original question of

> Nisala about the conversion/reversion and restoration of the

> 'untouchablity' status. Not unexpectedly, you did not show up.

> The general observer would have thought that such a topic should be

> very close to your heart. Surprise, surprise, you were nowhere to be found.

 

Another logical argument to prove that I am Kalavai Venkat:-) My

dear friends Nisala and Vel,(if those are your real names), you two

are not that important in my life that I should set aside all that I

have to do, and respond to your questions, whether the subject is

dear or not to my heart. I had made it very clear in my previous e-

mails that I would be able to come back to this forum only after

attending to other important matters. I have other priorities -

there is my family, and there is the work that I do to earn my

livelihood. I don't have the luxury of the leisure that you seem to

enjoy in carrying out "soodra-brahmana"/ Kalavai bashing. Just now,

I am wasting my time responding to you only because you have made

vile personal allegations. Well, this will be my last response to

you or Nisala. I unfortunately don't have infinite time at my disposal.

 

> I suppose, once you master Sanskrit in a mere 3 years, you

> automatically reach the manuvaadi dwijahood. A 3 year course in

> Sanskrit surely transforms people into Oreo cookies (of sorts)!

 

Does the mention of Sanskrit irritate you? This seemd to be a

special kind of allergy that afflicts primarily Dravidianists.

 

 

> Now tell me, where did you learn the term 'Dravidianist' ? To my

> knowledge it was introduced by our very own Kalavai Vengattu. Other

> than the bigoted, like Kalavai himself, no one else that I know of has

> used the term.

 

You are so naive in believing that I haven't been a member of other

forums and silently watched the antics of some of the members here

in those other forums. Please remember that the majority of members

in any forum are silent. They watch in silence, and in amusement,

your "grand" performance. Well, sometimes I enrich my vocabulary

from the discussions in these varied e-forums:-) And when you

people declare proudly that you are Buddhist/Hindu/Soodra/Brahmin in

various forums those statements also remain in the back of my mind.

 

> 

> And my last question would be about how you normally spell

> opportunity? May be this is your best opportunity to send all doubting

> thomases to Sindhu Sarasvathi Vedic wonderland.

 

O my, aren't we a great stickler for spelling:-) But before finding

the speck of dust in others' eyes, why not remove the stone in thine

own? O, sorry I forgot that this is not applicable to

Dravidianists. Or did you merely want to imply that as a Dalit, I

am not qualified to use the modern Deva Bhasha English?

 

Thank you once and all Mr. Vel Murugan, if that is your name.

 

Malarvizhi

 


 

From:  K. Loganathan

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  9:04 pm

Subject:  Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

Dear Friends,

 

 

I am confused. All of a sudden I get the following in the name of Radha-Canada but as if Kalavai Vegkat.  Another thing is that it is NOT anymore in the archve of Akandabaratam. I am forwarding to it and to meykandar so that it goes into the archives

 

What's going on?

 

Loga

 

radha_canada <radha_canada@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

[see above post...]

 


 

From:  Vel Murugan

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  9:15 pm

Subject:  Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, K. Loganathan wrote:

 

 

> Dear Friends

> 

 

Am I glad that you posted the messge. Before I left office, I read

this message. When I came home and looked at Akandabaratam, the

message had disappeared, but appeared later in Malarvizhi's name.

 

Do you see what kind of lies and deception these people are capable

of? This is what they do all their life.

 

Now, will the real radha_canada, who may have nothing to do with this

charade, stand up please?

 

I was getting ready to tear apart the mask of our sudhra brahmana

Kalavai Venkat (aka Malarvizhi). As Nisala said, he is such a pathetic

liar, he can not even cover his own tracks. These frauds are so

desperate to deceive the people, that they become their own worst enemies.

 

Vel Murugan

 


 

From:  K. Loganathan

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  9:36 pm

Subject:  Re: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

Dear Vel

 

In saying

 

 

<<I was getting ready to tear apart the mask of our sudhra brahmana

Kalavai Venkat (aka Malarvizhi). As Nisala said, he is such a pathetic

liar, he can not even cover his own tracks. These frauds are so

desperate to deceive the people, that they become their own worst enemies>>

 

 

you have said something very true and I hope scholars come to know how vile and filthy some smartha Brahmins like Kalavai Vengkat (Malarvizhi) can be. These fellows are intellectually impotent and resort to such criminal games to destory even groups like Akandbaratam. Well even if the Acaryas in Kanchi Madam can be murderous criminals why not their "disciples' like Kalavai?

 

 

It just pains me to see such lowly deceptions. I will not yet unsubscribe both of them (unless they unsubscribe themselves). The more they write the more they get exposed. It is high time the world at large see how foul some of these Smartha Brahmins can be.

 

 

Now I understand why the Dravidian movement was started by Periyar. Who wouldn't when such vile and criminal Brahmins claim to be dwijas by birth and demand unquestioning obedience and acceptance.  Such individuals must be EXPOSED as to what they are and eliminated

 

BEING is on my side for sure helping me in my tasks.

 

Loga

 


 

From:  Vel Murugan

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  10:06 pm

Subject:  Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, K. Loganathan wrote:

 

Dear Dr.Loga:

 

Myself and Nisala have known Kalavai Venkat (or whatever he may call

himself tomorrow) and his devious ways for a long time. There were too

many coincidences to ignore, and I began to smell a rat (skunk would

be better) the moment people began appearing from nowhere and were

appealing to you to give Malarvizhi a chance to express herself,

uninterrupted. Having known Kalavai Venkat for long, I know his

writing style, very well. Nisala is a very perceptive person, who can

identify a strumpet even when the strumpet is wearing a Waldo's mask.

 

Don't be surprised if Kalavai Venkat appears tomorrow wearing a

different mask. People who are so bigoted, resort to anything and

everything in their desperation.

 

In Kalavai Venkat's case, he is not only a bigoted sudhra brahmana, he

is also a paranoid schizophrenic. But, please don't discount this

fellow, either. He is being ably assisted by a whole gang of sudhra

brahmana co-conspirators.

 

I never thought he would give himself away so soon. I thought this

charade would reach a crescendo and then the hero would commit a

harakiri. But he chose to do it way too soon.

 

Vel Murugan

 


 

From:  Kalavai Venkat

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  10:29 pm

Subject:  Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

Vel initially thought Hare Krishnas didn't bestow varna upon their

converts. When shown that was not so, he bristles, "So what, they

confer the same *sudhra brahmanahood* on all converts. What I said

(in Sumero-Tamil) wasn't about caste but caste-based injustices."

And then, Vel tells Nisala that the Harijans are better off as

Christians. Nisala asks, "how?" You might expect that Vel would

respond with some studies. Nope! Now, he charges Malarvizhi that she

is not responding to Nisala's challenge! Were you all confounded by

these flip-flops? Flip-flops they were, but I was impressed.

 

Having proposed Nisala for Prez as the Democratic candidate, we had

been searching for his running-mate for Veep. After all, it is not

easy to find someone that can flip-flop unpredictably. But, with

Akandabaratam, one needs to look no further: you get two for the

price of one. Vel is the ideal candidate for Veep. We convened an

urgent meeting of DNC and proposed Vel for Veep. Kerry was a little

bothered about the uncouth and belligerant postures of vel. But, we

smartly neutralized the Boston (sudra) brahmin by accepting the

proposal and announced a 3-year project to iron out the rough edges

and turn Vel into a polished gentleman. This project has been

christened [sorry Vel, I know you hate Christianity!] J2G: from a

Jerk to a Gentleman. One of the senators, known for his sarcastic

remarks observed, "I am not sure that anything would be left after

the rough edges are gone." We promptly branded him a Manuvadi sudra

brahmana and banished him. The only concern now is whether Vel's

hair-do can match Edward's but we have 3 years to fix that.

 

Nisala and Vel have now declared that Malarvizhi is Kalavai and the

latest message from Loga means that Radha Canada is also Malarvizhi,

so by this logic(?) Kalavai is Radha Canada. Vel Murugan's latest

message implies that Vishvesh Obla, who appealed to Dr. Loga not to

interrupt Malarvizhi, is also Kalavai. Kudos, investigative

journalism in Akandabaratam has reached a crescendo! Still, I can't

understand why the investigative trio can't do a simple user source

search. Dr. Loga says that he is confused [well, that is

realization!] and bemoans that the entire smartha brahmin community

has ganged up against him. More insidiously, he calls for my

*elimination* merely on his mistaken belief that I am Malarvizhi. :-

)

 

Usually it is a good idea to think with a cool head before you act.

But, Nisala has been quite angry for some time. He barged into a

discussion on the date of Ashoka in IC and demanded that we discuss

the Sinhalese sources. When it was pointed out that the Sinhalese

sources are not fool-proof, his rage knew no bounds. He turned

abusive and I asked a few list members to intervene. Naturally, they

found him uncouth and demanded that he apologize. But, lacking grace

Nisala quit. The following messages make a nice bed time reading:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/46784

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/45977

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/46799

 

Ever since, Nisala has been behaving like the courtesan that

Vatsyayana ably describes. He has been seeing Kalavai in everything:

be it in his Vipassana meditation or Akandabaratam's Malarvizhi.

Loga's call for my elimination [isn't that a cool way to establish

Sumero-Tamil hypothesis - threatening opponents with elimination?]

needs to be addressed at leisure. Now, the great concern is teaching

our investigative trio how to check IP sources. Having proposed

Nisala & Vel for the race, I hope that they don't see Kalavai when

they debate their GOP opponents 3 years from now. Our J2G should

hopefully transform them. :-)

 

Thanks.

 

PS: Please await the release of "Idiot's guide to IP sources". The

first 3 distinguished recipients will be Nisala, Vel and Dr. Loga.

We are just anticipating 3 qualified users for this publication, so

others needn't rush to the bookstore.


 

From:  Kalavai Venkat

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  10:48 pm

Subject:  Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

 

It is hard to say when Dr. Loga will execute his threat of banning

the *two* people - Malarvizhi & myself. I would rather not think

about his more insidious threat about eliminating me. Assuming that

either of these threats don't materialize, I hope to entertain you

all again next week. :-)

 

Thanks.


 

From:  [Nisala Rodrigo]

Date:  Thu Mar 10, 2005  11:31 pm

Subject:  Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

 

Dr. Loganathan,

 

 

> you have said something very true and I hope scholars come to know

how vile and filthy some smartha Brahmins like Kalavai Vengkat

(Malarvizhi) can be. These fellows are intellectually impotent and

resort to such criminal games to destory even groups like

Akandabaratam. Well even if the Acaryas in Kanchi Madam can be

murderous criminals why not their "disciples' like Kalavai?

 

 

It is here where I cannot agree. Venkat's filthiness has nothing to

do with being a Brahmin. Hell, he's lied about so many things, would

it be a great surprise if he lied about being an Iyer? No,

his "intellectual impotence" is entirely a *personal* shortcoming.

When I think of Venkat, the image of a smoke-filled room of Brahmin

conspirators does not come to mind at all. Rather, I see a small man

hunched over a keyboard, fearfully looking over his shoulder lest

someone spy him through his shut blinds. His reasons for being so

terrified may or may not be justified- that is not for me to judge.

His addiction to deceit cannot be justified.

 

If lying does not produce any moral shame in this soul, who can tell

whether other evils, even murder will come as second nature. But

there is one small analogy we can make with HH Sri Jayendra Saraswati

Swamigal. His Holiness must have known without a doubt that given

the formidable powers out there trying to destroy Hinduism, any moral

lapse on *his* part as a public figure would both strengthen and

embolden such anti-Hindu forces, and may very well bring about fall

of Hindu institutions. When Venkat smears his lies and hypocrisy all

over the internet, how is he benefiting Hinduism or Sanskrit?? How

is he fighting the forces which threaten Hinduism?

 

 

> It just pains me to see such lowly deceptions. I will not yet

unsubscribe both of them (unless they unsubscribe themselves). The

more they write the more they get exposed.

 

That is exactly how I feel.

 

 

Nisala

 


 

From:  Vel Murugan

Date:  Fri Mar 11, 2005  12:20 am

Subject:  Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Kalavai Venkat wrote:

> 

> Ah, I forgot! Vel's & Nisala's uncanny and perceptive ways of

> reading patterns is legendary. Vel identified Malarvizhi as myself

> because she used the word Dravidianist. Vel thundered, "To the best

> of my knowledge, it was Kalavai who coined this word. Except him,

> nobody uses this word." So, the identification of Malarvizhi as

> Kalavai was complete in the court of perceptive judges! Vel's

> reference to "the best of Vel's knowledge" made me curious:"Why

> people trust their (even non-existent) wisdom so much?" I wondered

> and philosophically concluded, "It must be maya." But a simple

> google search returns numerous links that deploy the word

> Dravidianist:

> 

> http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html

> http://anthropology.uchicago.edu/courses/michicago/2002.shtml

> http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ait/ch47.htm

> 

> So, per Vel's & Nisala's *perceptive* logic, it is imperative to

> conclude that N S Rajaram, Steve Farmer (who cites NSR), Koenraad

> Elst and the entire team at the anthropology department of the

> university of Chicago are all the same person: Kalavai Venkat, who

> is none other than Malarvizhi, who is none other than Radha Canada,

> who is none other than Vishvesh Obla.

> 

> Cool & Happy week-end! :-)

> 

> Thanks.

 

The fun never ends. Kalavai should make up his mind soon. Instead of

insisting on entertaining us, he should consult a physician about his

inner conflicts about his identity - I mean, not being sure if he is

Kalavai Venkat or Malarvizhi. My dear friend, paranoid schizophrenia

is not state of enlightenment, even if the Vedas might say so. My

dear Kalavai, it is a serious mental disorder.

 

In his state of perpetual confusion, Ms.Kalavai Venkat has chosen to

speak for his alter ego. It is all the voices he hears inside his

head! It is not really his fault.

 

Poor fellow does not even understand that when some one refers to

something in quotes, it is not his own. Here is what Steve Farmer says

in the above reference. Who do you think S.Faramer is referring to? It

should be to you, or one of your fellow manuvaadins, who learnt the

term from you.

 

--

It should be noted that the claim that "Horse bones have been found at

all levels at Harappan sites" is disputed by specialists on the issue,

including Harvard University archaeologist Richard Meadow. The

"prominent 'Dravidianist'" referred to in this passage is I.

Mahadevan, author of the most widely used concordance of Indus

inscriptions (1977). Mahadevan's views on Harappan horses are

contained in part of an interview archived at the www.harappa.com website.

--

 

Well, if he had that much sense he would not started the whole

charade, knowing full well, that he is going to end up exposing

himself without anyone asking for it. That is what happens when you

ride on the Harappan horse to the Sindu Sarasvathi Vedic Disneyland.

 

Poor fellow. Kalavai Venkat, you should consult a shrink as soon as

you can.

 

Vel Murugan

 


 

From:  [Nisala Rodrigo

Date:  Fri Mar 11, 2005  12:49 am

Subject:  Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

 

 

Vel,

 

 

> In Kalavai Venkat's case, he is not only a bigoted sudhra brahmana, he

> is also a paranoid schizophrenic. But, please don't discount this

> fellow, either. He is being ably assisted by a whole gang of sudhra

> brahmana co-conspirators.

 

 

Who??? Kalyanaraman? Can you name a single member of IC who goes to

such phenomenal lengths to inflict self-humiliation, as Venkat?? Who

has that bizarre yet unique combination of pretentious self-

righteousness with cowardice and deceit?? And let's be realistic: if

Venkat draws upon the resources of any loyal followers willing to

take a bullet for him, wouldn't that surely mean that they would be

less intelligent than even him???

 

No, I think this sort of one-man act should be discounted. The thing

which a personality like Venkat feeds on most is the delusion that

he's important and feared by his opponents. Summon to mind, if you

dare, the image of a masked Sanskrit Avenger, the very avatar of

Dharma leading an army, driving the ignorant Periyarists/Marxists/P-

Secs out of the internet and striking fear into their hearts. It's

hard to hold that image in your head for long, isn't it? Because it

doesn't take long for reality to kick in and see Venkat trip over his

own cape and demask himself?

 

> I never thought he would give himself away so soon. I thought this

> charade would reach a crescendo and then the hero would commit a

> harakiri. But he chose to do it way too soon.

 

Yeah, we deserved a better show than this flop. Unfortunately, we'll

have to accept the harsh truth that this is as good as it will ever get.

 

 

Nisala


 

From:  K. Thanappan

Date:  Fri Mar 11, 2005  4:37 am

Subject:  Re: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

just for info. kalavai in tamil also means sex.

 

[K. Thanappan]

 


 

From:  K. Thanappan

Date:  Fri Mar 11, 2005  4:52 am

Subject:  Re: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

Dear loga, vel et al,

 

 

vanniyar is just my heritage and part of my history the same way iyer, iyengar, mudaliar, thevar pallar, parayar, pariyaree, sakkili, vannaan, nadar, konga vellala gounder, agamudiyar, servai etc is for the respective people. why do we have to deny our history. the laws of manu shastra doesnt exists anymore but it is no doubt the reason of our heritage. why cant we tamils honestly accept it. the malaysalees, telegus, kanadigas have no problem with their caste/clan title such as nair, menon, pannikar, reddiar, rao, naidu etc.  people who dont like their caste/clan titles esp parayars, pariyaree, pallar sakkili, vannaan etc  just have to change their own title but they dont have the right to tell others not to add their heritage title to their names. 

 

 

History should not be denied or covered up. all of us adhere to todays laws that all people irrespective of color, gender, race, religion, caste are equal.

 

thanks.

 

[K. Thanappan]


 

From:  [Radhakrishna Warrier]

Date:  Fri Mar 11, 2005  6:44 am

Subject:  Spurious Post

 

Dear Dr. Loga,

 

I see from the discussion here that a spurious post purportedly

originating from me appeared on this board and was cancelled later.

This is to inform you that the post did not originate from me. I

have taken all reasonable precautions that a normal home PC owner

would take to protect his PC. So, with a good degree of confidence I

can say that it did not originate from my PC. However, I cannot be

100% sure as no PC owner in these days can be. So, if any member of

this board ever receives a suspicious e-mail purportedly originating

from my e-mail ID, please inform me by personal e-mail at your

earliest convenience. Please bear with me for any inconvenience caused.

 

As an unfortunate consequence of the fake post, my name has been

linked with a poster who goes by the name Malarvizhi. I have nothing

to do with the said poster.

 

I would also request Dr. Loga to post this message to all the boards

where he has posted copies of the spurious post purportedly

originating from me.

 

Thanks and regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

 


 

From:  K. Loganathan

Date:  Fri Mar 11, 2005  7:00 am

Subject:  Re: [akandabaratam] Spurious Post

Dear Radha

 

 

I believe you and never suspected for a moment that you could have written that. It appears to be our Kalavai Venkat who started posting under the name Malarvizhi. The sharp eyes of Nisala and Vel Murugan helped us to expose this fraud.

 

Please check up Kalavai to find out how it was managed. I am not at all good in such games.

 

Anyway in whatever name a person publishes, his MIND comes through the post and exposes him as to what he is.

 

The news of this fraud is spreading across the various egroups and I hope they forward this message to their groups.

 

I wish to thank Nisala and Vel here for exposing Kalavai - a disgrace really.

 

Loga

 


 

From:  Paul Kekai Manansala

Date:  Fri Mar 11, 2005  7:16 am

Subject:  Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

 

I visited the IC archives and it appears this guy was removed as

moderator there. Probably his antics became too much for even that

group. Btw, the postings there seem more on-topic these days.

 

Regards,

Paul Kekai Manansala


From: [Abhinavagupta member = Identity withheld}

Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:02 PM

To: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Subject: Re: On Weenies, Ethnixes, and Impostors - check out our svAbhinava dialogue on 'caste confusion' (varNa-sankara), (cyber-) acculturation, and (mistaken?) identity

Dear Sunthar,

Please do keep forwarding these priceless exchanges :) ROTFL!! [Rolling On The Floor Laughing :-))]

Thanks!

[Name withheld - SV] (A tremendous fan - Ooops! Sorry if that set off any alarm bells. It shouldn't. You are a real life Rishi - collating valuable documents and producing priceless commentary.)

> 


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3018]

 Your time's finally up Shakespear Warrier...see what happens to cyber-theater when the Evil "manuvâdî zûdra-brahmin" Clown takes command of English (apabhramza)! [Ferrous Cranus, Grenade, Klaxon, Evil Clown]

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005; 8:50 am

Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas, and when engaged in battle he will not yield an inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness. Though his thrusts are decisively repulsed, his arguments crushed in every detail and his defenses demolished beyond repair he will remount the same attack again and again with only the slightest variation in tactics. Sometimes out of pure frustration Philosopher will try to explain to him the failed logistics of his situation, or Therapist will attempt to penetrate the psychological origins of his obduracy, but, ever unfathomable, Ferrous Cranus cannot be moved.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_62.php

Grenade isn't actually a Warrior, per se, but he is an ordnance so widely employed by combatants that no Flame Warriors guide would be complete without mentioning him. When lobbed into a discussion forum Grenade instantly reduces any semblance of reasonable discourse to smoking rubble and sets in motion the forces of war. Grenade can be loaded with different explosives depending on the forum, but some common detonating materials are Clinton, gun control, homosexuality, Reagan, abortion, taxes, conspiracy theory, the NEA, welfare reform, [caste!] etc. When beleaguered and facing certain defeat a Warrior can deflect even the most determined attack by triggering a diversionary explosion. Grenade is a particularly destructive weapon when wielded by Evil Clown, Issues, Troglodyte and even Weenie, but almost any Warrior can use it to gain a temporary strategic advantage. Grenade is the preferred weapon of Troller and L'Enfant Provocateur. Eagle Scout has been known to throw himself upon Grenade to save the forum.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_64.php

WARNING!!! YOU MUST READ THIS!!! Klaxon, the internet Chicken Little, raises the alarm for each and every paranoid conspiracy theory, Federal Big-Brother scheme, internet hoax, and latest computer virus. No black helicopter alert is so ludicrous, no urban legend so implausible, that he will not pass it along as accepted fact (in ALL CAPS with multiple exclamation marks). Congratulations, you are recipient 16,747 of today's Urban Myth. CAUTION: Often Klaxon knowingly posts false alarms to foment mischief.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_73.php

Evil Clown is very quick with a joke, but his jests always have a barb. He has little patience for in-depth discussions and will often disrupt exchanges between serious forum participants by introducing irrelevant topics, fatuous quips, and offhand comments. His greatest thrill is to taunt and humiliate weaker or more plodding Warriors with his snappy ripostes. When a strong Warrior finally corners him Evil Clown will attempt to escape by accusing his attacker of having no sense of humor.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_34.php

So too does the VidûSaka [Evil Clown] - through his incongruous speech, attire, ornaments, etc. - deploy the 'semblance of humor'...

Abhinavagupta, (ever-new esoteric) Commentary on the Science and Art of (Cyber-?) Theater (nâTya-zâstra)

Dear Malarvizhi (or are you rather some shady 'Dravidian' Krishna exuding the 'flowery fragrance' of a persecuted Christian Râdhâ?;-),

You are one real bombshell of a Dalit! A human Grenade that could well inspire these Al Qaida warriors unfortunately still in the service of One humorless God... But what was the "detonating material" giving you such explosive force? Diffuse 'casteist' hatred that just needs a focal point, a spark of ignition, to draw into the limelight all its inherent (self-) contradictions, before exiting (dis-?) gracefully when hoisted onto the inevitable role of scapegoat (the brahmin clown's function according to FBJ Kuiper). So what have we now: the Vedic version of the Protocols of Zion!

With more than 400 members on this Abhinava list that has been steadily 'cannibalizing' both Indian Civilization and Akandabaratam (= asylum for 'the whole of India':-), perhaps we should charge our pals (PayPal?) a nominal fee for membership, say US$1 per month (guru-dakSiNâ)? It would be a grievous insult to the memory of my guru to commercialize what he gave me so freely (though we are all obliged to put up with advertisements embedded into these 'free' Yahoo! emails, you won't find any at the svAbhinava site...), but I'm sure He - assuming he is still around at Play like Lord Shiva (tiru-vilaiyâDal) and has not dissolved back into some brahmanic Void (on account of his onerous Vedântic karma...) - won't hold anything against me for charging a nominal 'entertainment tax' from all these (would-be) devotees of Abhinavagupta!

Considering that there are so many well-armed warriors bracing to "eliminate" you, I hope you'll excuse this loony Clown—after all I did my doctorate on the incorrigible (Ferrous Cranus?) VidûSaka—for discoursing at such boring length with a (mere?) figment of his imagination!

Better luck next time!

Sunthar

P.S. to Paul and other Warriors: Far from being removed, at least to my knowledge, Kalavai voluntarily and "obstinately" quit as moderator of Indian Civilization—despite pleas from all sides to stay on—in protest against the irresponsible antics of his friend, the list owner...

 

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (Mar 10, 2005)

"On Weenies, Ethnixes, and Impostors - check out our svAbhinava dialogue on 'caste confusion' (varNa-sankara), (cyber-) acculturation, and (mistaken?) identity"]


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3019order of thread reversed]

 Re: Your time's finally up Shakespear Warrier...see what happens to cyber-theater when the Evil "manuvâdî zûdra-brahmin" Clown takes command of English (apabhramza)!

From: V. Ravishankar

Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005; 9:50 am

Hi Sunthar,

I am quite puzzled by this convoluted politics of jathism [casteism] of Tamils. I am not sure why this started in this forum again and where it ended. I assumed that this is what rages on in Akandabaratam and Indian Civilization, etc.m sites and have steered clear of them. [I mean I never visited them as far as I can tell. If I clicked on a link and was routed there, I don't remember it].

There may be some reason why you posted all this here. It is not clear to me though. In the end your posting or comments as a moderator are not clear to me either.

Did you conclude that Malarvizhi is a non-person / bogus id used to subvert legitimate exchanges in the forum?

Is there some conclusion that we can draw from this - does this mean the majority of the people who participated in the exchanges think that social constructivism is what makes people, and individuals, are incapable of dissociating themselves from their backgrounds and personal experiences to think away from them? But then some people, I mean the same people, are also assuming that somehow they have the superior ability to separate themselves from their personal experiences and become 'independent thinkers' and 'progressive' people too, isn't it? By a strange recursive process they attribute their own capacity to be independent thinkers back to their own primordial identities, thereby in a circular reasoning process they suddenly make their own community or identity group to be pretty much holy and uncorrupt in its essence. That never ceases to amaze me, how the human mind is so capable of self-deception.

Thind of posturing goes against all normal (thinking or experience based)sociology.

In any population, thinkers will come from all classes of people, and therefore as a local population will also have a reasonable spread around some sort of a mean. The average set of ideas may be to the left or to the right of what you may consider the average set of ideas that belong to the global population, if you can imagine such a homogeneity or universality among all humans of the world. [It is hard to assume that, because most things that are significant to the New York city residents are completely irrelevant to the Indians in Amazon jungles. It may be food, water, and shelter - if you wish to use essentialist categories of Marxism, but then what is food will vary in definition, even what is water will vary to a big extent, and what is shelter will definitely vary.

So can there be really universality among humans? Will universality emerge only in notions of ethics and conduct and 'social justice' then? Or what is permissible in collectivities as acceptable behavior?]

But there will be a spread among every local population, and there will be the so called 'radical transformation' group as well as the group which is complacent about the current state of affairs, and then some who will resist changes come what may along with some who will even wish to go back to some pristine periods. Of course those who wish to go back to pristine periods could be 'radical transformation' school too - like the Wahaabbists or Khomeinists or Jihadists or Hindutva people or evangelical fundies or even Maoists. Needless to say some factions of Dravidianists fall into this category, though not all clearly. The specific locations within a society which are contested therefore belong to the same kind of people with oppositional directions - like the smartha brahmins that Loga is fulminating against all the time, and the die-hard Vedic period revivalists on the opposite camp who think that smoke from grass can protect against nuclear radiation.

So I speculate that just as there is a local spread within a local sample, or sub-population, there could be a spread among sub-local locations as well? hmm...

As I am hard pressed for time I won't get into an elaboration of the ideas I scattered here. But overall, those who allow themselves autonomy from primordial identities are so bent on sticking an incapacity to be autonomous thinkers on those whom they detest and consider as 'other' who has to be eliminated.

That is racism in the Tamil political arena, and essentialism in the multiculturalist arena of the global politics. Unfortunately the 'progressive's are not as free of either of the viral infections as they imagine themselves to be. But then why is that? Is it really impossible to be free of essentialism then? Are there some degrees of essentialism that are necessary for any kind of inter-human exchanges? Something on the lines of 'loosely coupled systems' that some management scholars have brought up in University of Michigan sometime back. [I forget the name of this scholar, I need to locate his name.]

Regards,

Ravishankar

 

[Response to Sunthar's post (Mar 11, 2005) at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3018]


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3019]

 Re: Your time's finally up Shakespear Warrier...see what happens to cyber-theater when the Evil "manuvâdî zûdra-brahmin" Clown takes command of English (apabhramza)!

From: V. Ravishankar

Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005; 9:50 am

Dear Ravishankar,

I did receive your email, just as I am finishing up the proofing here, that this was actually intended to be a private reply to me. However, I'm allowing your (inadvertent) 'post' through nevertheless because these are very valid and pertinent self-reflexive interrogations (that are unfortunately not being raised in those 'other' forums where all the 'action' is...despite that many of those members hold 'dual nationality' in this forum as well!). Judging by previous experience, it might be better to grant you the opportunity (and incentive?) to come back to summarize and clarify your points below, rather than deny other members of the benefit of looking at this (tragi-?) 'comedy' of (not just cyber-) life through a different set of glasses...

Thanks and best wishes,

Sunthar

Propeller-Head, Target, Swarm, Peacemaker


From: pirayaani

Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005  10:44 am

Subject: Re: Spurious Post

 

This is all weird, it seems that akandabaratam has been hit by a

very clever hacker, how else is it possible to send a post from

someone else's mail, in this case Radha. And how is it possible to

cancel a post when it is already sent?

 

pirayaani

 


From: Paul Kekai Manansala

Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005  11:00 am

Subject: Re: Spurious Post

 

All you have to do is spoof Radha's email. Not very difficult. Most

programs allow you to change the sender address. Don't let too many

people know about this.

 

You can cancel email posting privileges in your membership

preferences which will prevent others, but also yourself, from email

posting. You can still post via the web after you have signed in.

 

> And how is it possible to

> cancel a post when it is already sent?

> 

 

The moderator, or a hacker who gained access to moderator functions,

can delete posts.

 

Regards,

Paul Kekai Manansala (moderator of two yahoogroups)

http://sambali.blogspot.com/

 

 


From: David Russell Watson

Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005  1:37 am

Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "nuruodo" <rodness@m...> wrote:

> --- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "Dr." Loganathan wrote:

> >

> > you have said something very true and I hope scholars come to

> > know how vile and filthy some smartha Brahmins like Kalavai

> > Vengkat (Malarvizhi) can be. These fellows are intellectually

> > impotent and resort to such criminal games to destory even

> > groups like Akandbaratam. Well even if the Acaryas in Kanchi

> > Madam can be murderous criminals why not their "disciples' like Kalavai?

> 

> It is here where I cannot agree. Venkat's filthiness has nothing

> to do with being a Brahmin.

 

"Vile", "filthy", "Venkat's filthiness"? I have had more than

one extremely heated argument with Venkat myself, including

what came very close to outright name calling, but even in my

most angry moments never would I have considering calling him

"vile" or "filthy". These two words, however disturbingly, are

the least of it.

 

> If lying does not produce any moral shame in this soul, who can

> tell whether other evils, even murder will come as second nature.

 

You're refering to the accused acharya, but the manner in which

both of you have worded it, you are referring to Venkat as well.

Do you truly intend to publicly claim that Venkat is inclined to murder?

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, somebody should sue.

 

David


From: David Russell Watson

Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005  1:40 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:

> 

> I visited the IC archives and it appears this guy was removed

> as moderator there.

 

That is most certainly not the case. It was Venkat's

own decision to resign as moderator. His moderatorship

in fact had the approval of most of the active posters,

and several expressed their regrets at seeing him go.

 

> Probably his antics became too much for even that group. Btw,

> the postings there seem more on-topic these days.

 

You make two entirely baseless inferences here. First,

that the group objected to him and so removed him, and

second, that he was somehow responsible for the list

supposedly going off topic.

 

Do you have no shame, or simply a problem reading the

I.C. archives?

 

David

 


From: K. Loganathan

Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005  2:17 am

Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Dear David

 

This possible [error] on the part of Paul has been already pointed out by Sunthar. So why harp on it? What are intentions?

 

Loga

 


From: K. Loganathan

Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005  2:27 am

Subject: Re: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

Dear David

 

Thank-you and I appreciate your kindness . Perhaps you are more generous than we are or at least I am. After what he has done in Akandabaratam  if the words 'vile' 'filthy' and so forth are inappropriate,  the least descriptive of his behaviour what will the right words to describe what he has done?

 

Now about Jayendra Swamikal etc Nisala has pointed out that such generalizations may not hold and I have accepted that. However I feel that what matters is Brahmanism and which creates such individuals. Dr Ambedkar seems to have had such views.

 

But what is the new thing you are trying to say? Am I to take  it that Brahmanism does not create such centres as Kanchi Madam and such individuals as Kalavai ?

 

Loga


From: Paul Kekai Manansala

Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005  8:38 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, K. Loganathan wrote:

 

> Dear David

> 

> This possible on the part of Paul has been already pointed out by

> Sunthar. So why harp on it? What are intentions?

> 

 

He seems to have some type of personal fixation.

 

Anyway I just did a cursory search on the whole identity thing and

found out that Venkat was no longer moderator.

 

As for him being partly responsible for it going off-topic. Yes, I

stand by that statement. He was moderator when this happened in the

extreme, and I stopped visiting the group. Many of the postings at

that time were very strong messages against just about every non-

brahminist group in India from Muslims to "commies."

 

Regards,

Paul Kekai Manansala

 


From: Vel Murugan [to David]

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  1:31 am

Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

I don't know what acharya you are referring to. If you are referring

to the fraud who masquerades as some kind of Hindu religious head,

operating from Kanchivaram, then it is you, who has to explain your

innuendo about the said 'acharya' 's inclination for murder. If you

are convinced that the 'acharya' is capable of murder, then and only

then, your inferences would be valid. Then the onus will be on you to

prove that the revered acharya is, in fact, inclined to murder.

 

Such accusations as you have made against the revered acharya, will

not be taken to kindly by certain sections of the manuvaadi sudhra

brahamanas.

 

Vel Murugan


From: Vel Murugan  [to Paul]

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  2:04 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

It is strange that these kind of people are more than willing to

overlook some of the serious offenses and are more bothered about

trifle things.

 

Radha Krisha Warrier makes a disclaimer about he not being responsible

for the post made through his account. I do not think it is a case of

email spoofing. The fact that the poster was able to delete/recall the

message implies that it was posted using the username and password of

Radha Krishna Warrier. Yahoo forums allow you to delete a message

posted by you, but then you have to authenticate using your bonafide

username/password.

 

How did Malarvizhi (yes, don't we know who she is?) get hold of the

username and password of Radha Krishna Warrier? It should have been

acquired illegally through hacking and this is considered a punishable

offense.

 

I do not think Malarvizhi (or what ever he is calling himself today)

has the necessary software engineering savvy to break into Radha

Krishna Warrier's computer. Even if he did, why of all people Radha

Krishna Warrier, who thinks Loga's sumero-Tamil thesis is an affront

to his sense and sensibilities? That situation sounds very implausible.

 

What do we make of this?

 

Vel Murugan

 

 


From: Paul Kekai Manansala

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  10:14 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

You are right, Vel. I forgot that Yahoo allows the original poster

to cancel the message, and Radha does claim someone else cancelled it.

 

Thus, it looks like "Radha Krishna Warrier" is the same as Dravid

brahmin "Kalavai Venkat."

 

And as "Malarvizhi" has dropped out of sight, one can only wonder if

the saraswati sudra brahmana is trying to figure out how to make

that identity less obviously his own manifestation.

 

Regards,

Paul Kekai Manansala

 


From: "radha_canada"

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  12:36 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Dear Paul and other list members,

 

It is quite unfortunate that somebody used my account to post under

a fake indentity. I am no expert, and can't say how this could have

been done. Also, I don't want to go public with my suspicions. The

best that I can do is to say that I am not responsible for it.

 

I am sure that Dr. Loga and most responsible list members know that

I am not Kalavai Venkat. I don't think it is difficult for those

who have read our posts in different e-forums to appreciate that we

are two different individuals holding very divergent views on many matters.

 

I have attacked Dr. Loga's linguistic theories in this and other

forums in the past. But those are not personal attacks. And I am

sure Dr. Loga knows that. I hold Dr. Loga in high esteem as a

person. Again, I am sure that Dr. Loga reciprocates that feeling.

 

I said recently that I would not post anything to this forum. That

was as a protest against the unsubscribing of Shri Ram Varmha. I

made a previous post to let list members know that I have nothing to

do with the recent fake posts. And I am posting this because I saw

the statement that I am Kalavai Venkat. This is to request all not

to harbour such mistaken notions that Kalavai Venkat and I are the

same person. I hope Dr. Loga will step in to discourage the

tendency to discuss such unfounded guesses.

 

Thanks and regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

 


From: Paul Kekai Manansala

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  1:13 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Radhakrishna, if I am mistaken, then I apologize.

 

If what you say is true, then someone must have hacked your account

since not anyone can just cancel another's message.

 

If it is shown to be Kalavai, then I think Dr. Loga must commit

digital brahminicide i.e., ban the shudra from Akandabaratam.

 

I would also suggest changing your yahoo password.

 

Regards,

Paul Kekai Manansala

 


From: pirayaani

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  1:40 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

Maybe try to contact Yahoo if they can track down the person?

 

pirayaani

 


From: Vel Murugan

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  4:22 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Dear Paul:

 

I have followed Radha Krishna Warrier's posts for a while now. I can

vouch for Radha Krishna and his distinct identity. Radhakrishna

Warrier and Kalavai Venkat are two separate people.

 

How exactly Shiree Kalavai Venkat got hold of his yahoo account will

remain an unsolved mystery. Though Radhakrishna Warrier and Kalavai

Venkat differ on issues, there is also common denominator. I have

never seen Kalavai Venkat taking issues with Radhakrishna because he

differed with him. It is entirely unlikely that Kalavai Venkat wanted

to create trouble for Radhakrishna. If he loses people like

RadhaKrishna, there will be no one left in IC audience who does not

belong to the manuvaadi sudhra brahmana kind. Even if Kalavai Venkat

hates him for whatever personal reasons, Radhakrishna's goodwill

towards IC is of strategic importance to IC, in order to give a

semblance of diversity of opinions.

 

My strong suspicion is that there is some kind of an underground

resistance movement made up of members, who are different

personalities of Kalavai Venkat, to disrupt discussion forums that do

not subscribe to manuvaadi sudhra brhamana world view. There are bound

to be people sympathetic to this crusade of Kalavai Venkat.

 

Loga is hated like a plague in these manuvaadi sudhra brahmana circles

- whether it be for his Sumero-Tamil, Rigkrit or Saiva Siddanta. Most

likely, it is for his clear understanding of Saiva Siddanta philosophy

and his unabashed criticism of manuvaadins.

 

On the issue of banning kalavai Venkat, I think it will be a wrong

idea to unsubscribe him from Akandabaratam. If we ban him, he can

always come back in another avatar. It does not solve any purpose. And

we become no different than the manuvaadi sudhra brahmana country club

called IC. Think about it. We need a vidusaka like Kalavai Venkat in

this forum.

 

Vel Murugan

 


From: Paul Kekai Manansala

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  4:59 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Vel Murugan wrote:

> 

> --- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:

> >

 

> 

> On the issue of banning Kalavai Venkat, I think it will be a wrong

> idea to unsubscribe him from Akandabaratam. If we ban him, he can

> always come back in another avatar. It does not solve any purpose. And

> we become no different than the manuvaadi sudhra brahmana country club

> called IC. Think about it. We need a vidusaka like Kalavai Venkat in

> this forum.

> 

 

I agree with you generally, Vel. I was only saying that in case

somehow we managed to expose Kalavai as the culprit in what would be

a criminal offense. In that instance, I would have no sympathy for

him as there are many other forums for him to preach his

sudrabrahmana-varnadharmasastra.

 

Regards,

Paul Kekai Manansala

 


From: K. Loganathan

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  6:37 pm

Subject: Fwd: malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada

I am just forwarding this information for those who want to chase the various ghosts like KV RadhaKrishna Malarvizhi and  so forth.

 

Loga

 

Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:15:01 -0000

To: K. Loganathan

Subject: malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada

 

 

I just watched the acrimonious exchanges on your list.

 

There should be a way of settling these acrimonious debates here. I

just checked most if not all of malarvizhi's posts. His/her posts

were originated from the IP: 24.215.115.170 (ISP: eastlink.ca), and

His/her first post appeared on Feb 26, 05. Given people do post from

workplace, and from home, we can expect two different IP addies for

the same poster.

 

There is a puzzling coincidence. Many of radha_canada's were

originated from the same IP addy (24.215.115.170). For instance, look

at the posts #14919(1/15/05), #14969(1/17/05).

 

KVenkat's posts were originating from different IPs from the one

listed above.

 

You can post this message, only by *removing my name from the post*.


From: Paul Kekai Manansala

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  7:00 pm

Subject: Re: Fwd: malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, K. Loganathan wrote:

 

> I am just forwarding this information for those who want to chase

the various ghosts like KV RadhaKrishna Malarvizhi and so forth.

> 

> Loga

> 

> 

> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:15:01 -0000

> To: "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@y...>

> Subject: malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada

> 

> 

> I just watched the acrimonious exchanges on your list.

> 

> There should be a way of settling these acrimonious debates here. I

> just checked most if not all of malarvizhi's posts. His/her posts

> were originated from the IP: 24.215.115.170(ISP: eastlink.ca),

 

 

Does radha_canada live in Canada? That would explain "eastlink.ca"

which appears to be a Canadian ISP (.ca = Canada domain)

 

However, that is a strange ISP for malarvizhi who supposedly lives

in Mumbai.

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "Malarvizhi"

<malarvizhi76@y...> wrote:

> 

> Good Morning Shri Kalavai Venkat,

> 

> It is morning here in Mumbai now. A good evening if you are on

the other side of the globe. Morning hours are fleet footed here

in this wonderful mahanagar. They zip past you, and before you

know it, it is time to get ready to go to work. And before you

have had time to think anything, you will be back home in the

golden Friday evening. We don't look forward to two days of gay

abandon as in the West. Just two quiet days with family, friends,

and books. And by the way, some of us have a six day, and not a

>five day week in this part of the globe.

 

While digital royal brahmanicide with HRM Dr. Loganathan as reigning

sovereign of Akandabaratam is to be avoided, it should not be ruled

out entirely.

 

Regards,

Paul Kekai Manansala


From: K. Loganathan

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  7:48 pm

Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: Fwd: malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada

 

Dear Paul

 

I will not still unsubcribe Kalavai Venkat and so forth for the simple reason that these various kinds of mischevous plays serve to expose the evils of Brahmanism quite effectively. As I have said many times this is a  cancer with its criminal VarNasrama Dharma that has done great harm to the Indians in general and where now we have 260 million people pushed down as Dalits and so forth. Even when they become Muslims and Christians, there seem to be NO ESCAPE for them.

 

The root cause of it all is this Brahmanism and the whole of Indian society must be wiped clean of this malaise for it to move again on a healthy path where each individual is given the basic human rights and dignity.

 

I want also the Brahmins to feel ashamed of themselves in calling them Brahmins who are dwijas by virtue of birth alone. When they entertain criminal tendencies, how can they respected as spiritual heads?

 

Brahmanism coupled with the Advaita Vedanta seems to have KILLED the ethical dimensions of the human mind so that for them even various kinds of criminal activities seem to be quite acceptable as long the supremacy of the Brahamins  is not challenged.

 

I believe that only the EXPOSURE of their grossly unethical behaviour will root out Brahmanism. Akandabaratam can be the forum for such an exorcism.

 

Nothing to worry as BEING is there to take care of everything.

 

Loga


From: [Nisala Rodrigo]

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  8:31 pm

Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR

 

david_russell_watson,

 

> --- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "nuruodo" wrote:

> > --- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "Dr." Loganathan wrote:

> > > you have said something very true and I hope scholars come to

> > > know how vile and filthy some smartha Brahmins like Kalavai

> > > Vengkat ( Malarvizhi) can be. These fellows are intellectually

> > > impotent and resort to such criminal games to destory even

> > > groups like Akandbaratam. Well even if the Acaryas in Kanchi

> > > Madam can be murderous criminals why not their "desciples' like

> > > Kalavai?

> > It is here where I cannot agree. Venkat's filthiness has nothing

> > to do with being a Brahmin.

> "Vile", "filthy", "Venkat's filthiness"? I have had more than

> one extremely heated argument with Venkat myself, including

> what came very close to outright name calling, but even in my

> most angry moments never would I have considering calling him

> "vile" or "filthy". These two words, however disturbingly, are

> the least of it.

 

 

The problem with the terms "vile" and "filthy" is that they're too

subjective, don't really carry much meaning beyond a disgust for the

person on whom they are applied to. I'll amend my statement:

 

Venkat's filthiness arising from his paranoia, cowardice, and deceit

has nothing to do with being a Brahmin.

 

 

> > If lying does not produce any moral shame in this soul, who can

> > tell whether other evils, even murder will come as second nature.

> You're refering to the accused acharya, but the manner in which

> both of you have worded it, you are referring to Venkat as well.

> Do you truly intend to publicly claim that Venkat is inclined to murder?

 

I phrased the question above in the form of a statement. I was

pointing out Venkat's lack of moral shame, and that a lack of moral

shame could lead one to do anything. "Lack of moral shame" means not

feeling bad about doing something which most cultures/value systems

agree is bad (in this case, lying like there's no tomorrow).

 

 

> I've said it before and I'll say it again, somebody should sue.

 

When and where did you say this, and who should sue who for what? Why?

 

Unfortunately, the notion of transparency in Western law would

probably scare away someone like Venkat, if it ever came to that. If

he wanted to bring anyone to court, he would have to appear as a plaintiff.

 

 

Nisala


From: [Nisala Rodrigo]

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  8:36 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat? 

> > Probably his antics became too much for even that group. Btw,

> > the postings there seem more on-topic these days.

 

> You make two entirely baseless inferences here. First,

> that the group objected to him and so removed him, and

> second, that he was somehow responsible for the list

> supposedly going off topic.

 

I agree. There's no way Venkat could've been responsible for the

list going off topic, if the topic is how to blame everything wrong

in India on anti-Hindu forces.

 

 

> Do you have no shame, or simply a problem reading the

> I.C. archives?

 

Given that the IC archives are closed to the public (a grand

statement of its commitment to open knowledge and transparency),

there may be lots of problems reading them. However, one could gain

access by following Venkat's example and joining under a false identity.

 

 

Nisala


From: Paul Kekai Manansala

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  8:51 pm

Subject: Re: Fwd: malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan" wrote:

 

> Dear Paul

> 

> I will not still unsubcribe Kalavai Vengkat and so forth for the

simple reason that these various kinds of mischevous plays serve to

expose the evils of Brahmanism quite effectively.

> 

 

I submit to your flawless reasoning, Dr.

 

Let us hope the wicked sudra brahmins (and not all are such) will

realize the dark destination of their crooked path, and fully repent

with contrite and circumcised heart.

 

Regards,

Paul Kekai Manansala

 


From:  [Nisala Rodrigo]

Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005  9:28 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Paul,

 

> You are right, Vel. I forgot that Yahoo allows the original poster

> to cancel the message, and Radha does claim someone else cancelled it.

> Thus, it looks like "Radha Krishna Warrier" is the same as Dravid

> brahmin "Kalavai Venkat."

 

I would have a very hard time believing that Radha is another of

Venkat's inventions, given how pathetic his attempt to

construct "Malarvizhi" was. Radha has demonstrated too much of an

independent personality, with none of the "coincidences" to have

anything to do with Venkat.

 

 

> And as "Malarvizhi" has dropped out of sight, one can only wonder if

> the saraswati sudra brahmana is trying to figure out how to make

> that identity less obviously his own manifestation.

 

I surely hope so. I was hoping for a moment that "Malarvizhi" would

have replaced Venkat, giving a less grotesque and fraudulent veneer

to this otherwise grotesque, fraudulent soul. Unfortunately, he

didn't recognize my warning for what it was, and now he's in the

pathetic position of having to defend his lie to everyone. Maybe

when he makes his next surrogate less obvious, the rest of us we'll

be able to deal with him as a credible human being.

 

 

Nisala

 

 


From: Ambrose

Date: Mon Mar 14, 2005  1:19 am

Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Dear Radha,

radha_canada wrote:

It is quite unfortunate that somebody used my account to post under

a fake indentity.  I am no expert, and can't say how this could have

been done. Also, I don't want to go public with my suspicions.  The

best that I can do is to say that I am not responsible for it.

No one suspects anything until one day your mail came.

After several minutes away the same contends of the mail

came under Malar's name.

Can you send your photograph and date of birth to my private

mail to make myself believe in you? I can check it out from

my Lord Muniswarer. Since you are innocent, I hope you don't

mind send me your photo.

I said recently that I would not post anything to this forum.  That

was as a protest against the unsubscribing of Shri Ram Varmha.

I am not sure but heard that Mr. Ram used to reply briefly

in Akandabaratham and vastly in IC condemning Loga and

his Sumeru findings. It is apropriate to reply or refute or

reasoning ones claim in the same group. (Unless cc). Upon

learning these tricks, I believe Loga had unsubscribed him.

One thing Loga did was a quick action and never put him

a trial in the group. I believe through trial with members of

this group, one found guilty then he should be given a choice.

Eithe sincere apology or pack and go.

I don't have time, if not I can track anyone whoever they

are behind the wall of mirrors. I can clearly see that after

Mr. Ram was thrown out, a group favour of him trying to

sabotage akandabaratham.

FYI, this Loga was sabotaged by certain groups in tamilnet.

He and the Bala Pillai survived but the loser left and formed

their own moderated groups. After meykandar was subotaged

but the loser had to leave on their own. Now akandabaratham.

We were fully aware the tactics used by certain people in

akandabaratham cos we had came through the same tactics

which were used in tamilnet and meykandar.

Best regards,

Ambrose.

Note: Loga, clyde, paul, vr and bvk sastry concentrate in your

tamil, sumerian and [Sanskrit] arguments. Leave other matters to vel

and nisala to handle. Sometimes we need some clowns to

entertain us) 

 


From: K. Thanappan

Date: Mon Mar 14, 2005  3:21 am

Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: Fwd: malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada

 

 

LOGA, please visit the nearest psychiatrist for your problems. Caste is a single issue and this single issue is not the cause of the problems we have in indian civilisation. It is not writing a new law to govern society and the Hindus themselves must be blamed for doing nothing to change. Blaming the brahmin priests won't take us anywhere.

 

kt

 


From: Paul Kekai Manansala

Date: Mon Mar 14, 2005  9:28 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Ambrose <ambros@p...> wrote:

> Dear Radha,

> 

> radha_canada wrote:

> 

> Note: Loga, clyde, paul, vr and bvk sastry concentrate in your

> tamil, sumerian and sk arguments. Leave other matters to vel

> and nisala to handle. Sometimes we need some clowns to

> entertain us)

 

You're probably right, Ambrose. I'll try but sometimes it's hard

not getting involved in all the fun. But I realize it is detracting

from meaningful interaction on this group.

 

Regards,

Paul Kekai Manansala

 


From: David Russell Watson

Date: Mon Mar 14, 2005  3:11 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Ambrose <ambros@p...> wrote:

> Dear Radha,

> 

> Can you send your photograph and date of birth to my private

> mail to make myself believe in you? I can check it out from

> my Lord Muniswarer. Since you are innocent, I hope you don't

> mind send me your photo..

 

Do NOT under any circumstances send your photograph or any

other personal information to this person, Radha. In case

you don't remember, this Ambrose is the same person who a

few years ago threatened on the I.C. list to decapitate

some people. That, along with his Munisvarar hallucinations

demonstrates him to be psychologically disturbed.

 

Please, do not out of some sense of honor put yourself and

your family at risk.

 

David

 


From: Deosaran Bisnath

Date: Mon Mar 14, 2005  3:24 pm

Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

Dear Fellow Members:

 

Where are we going with this thread?

 

Accusing people, asking for photographs, double and multiple identities, lies,

deception.... I recently joined after being forwarded several informative posts

from this group, so maybe I am not accustomed to the type of posts in the group.

 

May I just add: I am moderator of 3 YAHOO groups, including Caribbean Hindus;

based on my experience and knowledge, in a Moderated group, the Moderator(s),

the author(s) of a post, and anyone who has the Access level, CAN modify a

post. If I wish, I can modify any of the posts in the groups I moderate, I can

modify the source e-mails to anything, real or imagined.

 

Regards,

 

Deosaran

 


From: David Russell Watson

Date: Mon Mar 14, 2005  5:42 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "david_russell_watson" wrote:

> 

> ... this Ambrose is the same person who a

> few years ago threatened on the I.C. list to decapitate

> some people. That, along with his Munisvarar hallucinations

> demonstrates him to be psychologically disturbed.

 

The post in which he threatened to have some people's

heads chopped off, message #9904, has been removed from

the IndianCivilization list's archives. However Kaushal

Vepa, who was moderator at that time, quoted Ambrose's

threat in message #9909 which is still there. Also see

Ambrose's message #9823 in which he offers to reveal his

method for seeing ghosts in graveyards.

 

If all that isn't enough, see also Ambrose's website at

http://www.ambros.freeservers.com/miss01.html where he

offers, for $100.00 each, to use his spiritual powers to

locate missing persons. He charges $500.00 to locate the

remains of a dead missing person.

 

It's a shame that his spirituality doesn't satisfy him

with spiritual rewards alone.

 

Good gods what a nest of loons!

 

David

 


From: K. Loganathan

Date: Mon Mar 14, 2005  6:37 pm

Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Dear Desaram

 

Welcome to akandabaratam. This welcome note is also extended to many members who have just  joined the group. Just for the information of the new members, let me say that this is an unmoderated group and I am the only moderator and group-owner as well. I do not interfere with any of the posts - let them appear as they are written by the authors.

 

I believe in freedom of expression and also in self-moderation. Only in some extreme cases I interfere and if necessary unsubscribe. I realize that this has its own disadvantages but I strongly believe that in the long run quite effective.

 

The authors are of various kinds and hence the qualities too may vary. However I believe the overall tone has been very healthy and thanks to the scholalry inputs of many good souls , we are making history by contributing substantialy towards a re-understanding of the genesis of Indian Civilization and how it is linked to many other ancient civilizations in the world. We are also sperheading NEW thinking so that a massive change in Indian (and world) thinking is also initiated.

 

This will continue despite some hiccups on the way but certainly also part of the game. The group will remain unmoderated so that members can continue to enjoy the freedom to express their own feelings and their posts getting into the acrhives just as written by them

 

Loga

 


From: Vel Murugan

Date: Mon Mar 14, 2005  9:47 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

 

Deosaran:

 

What you are saying is, Loga modified every post made by Malarvizhi so

that it appears to originate from the 24.215.115.70. Am I reading you

right here? Wow!

 

Now take this gauntlet and prove your digital prowess. Ask Loga to

send your discussion group a post. And you will change the header to

make it appear as if it was posted by me. You want to take this as a challenge?

 

We can sue Yahoo for big bucks!

 

Nisala gave detailed reasoning as to why Malarvizhi and Kalavai Venkat

are one and the same people. It looks like Deosaran has not cared to

read Nisala's posts.

 

I never knew Loga is a computer whiz, that he could change the header

of every one of the posts from Malarvizhi and make it look like it

originated from 24.215.115.70 or 142.176.139.215.

 

You know what Mr. Deosaran, every one of the Akandabaratam members who

chose to receive emails of the posts, do have a copy of the post made

by Malarvizhi (sure!) in the name of Radhakrishna Warrier!

 

As they say, you cannot fool all the people all the time.

 

 

Vel Murugan

 


From: pirayaani

Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005  12:12 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Let's assume that it is Loga who has moderated Malarvizhis post to

look like it is the same person as Radha, then why of all people

Radha? Does Loga have a history with Radha as he has with Kalavai?

 

What I did found suspicious about this Malarvizhis-character aka

claiming to be a dalit woman was that she has branded almost

every "dravidans" as barbarian invaders and imposed an evil caste

system on the natives of India, whereas the "aryans" where just a

peaceful migrating people who sort of have modified the caste-system.

 

pirayaani

 


From: Deosaran Bisnath

Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005  4:27 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Dear Vel:

 

Thanks for your response. No, I have not, and do not, accuse or imply the

esteemed Loga of modifying any posts. I respect and admire Loga and his work;

in fact, I did not know who was the Moderator(s) of this forum before Loga's

reply, and I did not know if the forum was moderated or not.

 

I merely pointed out that it was possible for anyone who had the Access rights

to modify posts. I am a new member, I came in late on the thread, hence I do

not have a complete picture and timeline of this event.

 

> 

 

Thanks,

 

Deosaran

 


From: [Nisala Rodrigo]

Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005  11:29 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Dear Deosaran Bisnath,

 

> 

 

What you mentioned about the moderator is probably right, although I

would not believe that Dr. Loganathan would stoop that low, from my

experience. I myself did not observe "Malarvizhi"'s post under the

name of Radha's, so I cannot comment on it. I am at a loss to

explain how Radha's account got mixed up in this. Probably of all

members of akandabaratam, his views on both Dr. Loganathan and the

IC "scholarship" are the most similar to mine I think, although he

expresses them in a more decent manner. I wish he would participate

more, bearing in mind that Dr. Loganathan has given Ram Varmha a

chance to resubscribe (really generous, considering how Ram insulted

him in IC).

 

I would be truly disgusted if this forum was hacked into, and under

normal circumstances I would be really surprised. Akandabaratam has

a number of members but not an overwhelming calling. Which is why

Venkat's antics here amaze me - what does he have to gain by

denigrating Dr. Loganathan? What does he find so threatening, if

Loga is the crackpot Venkat claims him to be???

 

Well, in any case it would seem that Venkat has acknowledged defeat,

for now, by limiting his verbal diarrhea to a rather

disturbing "weekly." I can understand his having second thoughts on

being humiliated on a daily basis.

 

> 

> 

 

Nisala

 


From: Ambrose

Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005  6:51 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Vanakkam David,

david_russell_watson wrote:

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "david_russell_watson"

<liberty@p...> wrote:

>

> ... this Ambrose is the same person who a

> few years ago threatened on the I.C. list to decapitate

> some people. That, along with his Munisvarar hallucinations

> demonstrates him to be psychologically disturbed.

The post in which he threatened to have some people's

heads chopped off, message #9904, has been removed from

the IndianCivilization list's archives.

Sure someone might have the message. They can forward here.

However Kaushal

Vepa, who was moderator at that time, quoted Ambrose's

threat in message #9909 which is still there. Also see

Ambrose's message #9823 in which he offers to reveal his

method for seeing ghosts in graveyards.

If you are coward, please don't try any of the method. Hide

behind the skirts!!! (Can someone forward the message to me.)

If all that isn't enough, see also Ambrose's website at

http://www.ambros.freeservers.com/miss01.html where he

offers, for $100.00 each, to use his spiritual powers to

locate missing persons. He charges $500.00 to locate the

remains of a dead missing person.

Thanx for advertise my webpage. So it is not scam.

You talk like a child down here. You study college / university

by spending large money to obtaine degrees. After obtaining,

will you select profession where you can work without pay?

Rightnow are you working for your ricebowl? If not, I accept

your comment above because it was understood a child has

no worriess and depent on fathers wallet.

My dear friend, I am glad that you gave me opportunity to

enlighten to other members. We are about ten or more people

doing this but I am the main spokesman for everyone in my

team. It is not simple to find a missing person in USA and

staying in Malaysia. These are the expertism which myself

and my friends learn more than twenty years. These expertism

is not for just for free service. My friends having family.

If they used methods from maya world, it will take days. So

they don't have to go work earn ricebowls. The small fees

will help them and their family. About rituals have to purchase

many items. It will cost a lot. I can do free service but shall

I bill your father or you?

OK! I will do one case for free for you. Can you contact

the family of one missing person to contact us? You will

stand as a middleman. Either you are they have to pay

single cent. Can you do it?

 

It's a shame that his spirituality doesn't satisfy him

with spiritual rewards alone.

Oh GOD you are jealous. At least we are doing a good

service to mankind. Are you afraid that I will recover the

remains of the lady you murdered???? Sue me.

Good gods what a nest of loons!

Also you are one of the nest...!!!

Oru Tamilan....  Ambrose.

David


From: Ambrose

Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005  6:22 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Dear David,

david_russell_watson wrote:

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Ambrose <ambros@p...> wrote:

> Dear Radha,

>

> Can you send your photograph and date of birth to my private

> mail to make myself believe in you? I can check it out from

> my Lord Muniswarer. Since you are innocent, I hope you don't

> mind send me your photo..

Do NOT under any circumstances send your photograph or any

other personal information to this person, Radha.

So you are covering his arse by not showing to others

whether he posted or not under malar's name.

In case you don't remember, this Ambrose is the same person

Always Ambrose will be same. He will not cover his face under

the name of David, Malar or Radha. Only the real gentleman will

allowed to see one's photo or particulars in the WWW to show

the person is real and not duplicated. Are you a gentleman?

who a

few years ago threatened on the I.C. list to decapitate

some people. That, along with his Munisvarar hallucinations

demonstrates him to be psychologically disturbed.

My dear friend, if you wanted to tell something, you must tell

in full. You must tell the members, why and what makes to

me respond in such a way. You are not telling to I.C. members.

In Akandabaratham members were unlike as the other groups for

just listening in what you say. These members are not so stupid

and dumb to listen whatever you say. They knew how to evaluate

the facts.

Please, do not out of some sense of honor put yourself and

your family at risk.

Am I such a powerful person? He is living in Canada and I

am in Malaysia. Do not talk nut comments here.

Oru Tamilan....  Ambrose.

David

 


From:  David Russell Watson

Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005  1:56 pm

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

 

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Ambrose wrote:

> 

> Oh GOD you are jealous. At least we are doing a good

> service to mankind. Are you afraid that I will recover

> the remains of the lady you murdered???? Sue me.

 

Or do you not in reality "locate" the bodies of those

whom you have yourself decapitated and buried, and then

offer up as those of the missing?

 

I think that the Malaysian authorities should be alerted

to your activities, and start keeping an eye on you.

 

> > Good gods what a nest of loons!

> 

> Also you are one of the nest...!!!

 

No, just a stunned and amazed "ornithologist".

 

David


From: Ambrose

Date: Wed Mar 16, 2005  12:10 am

Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?

 

Vanakkam David,

david_russell_watson wrote:

--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, Ambrose <ambros@p...> wrote:

>

> Oh GOD you are jealous. At least we are doing a good

> service to mankind. Are you afraid that I will recover

> the remains of the lady you murdered???? Sue me.

Or do you not in reality "locate" the bodies of those

whom you have yourself decapitated and buried, and then

offer up as those of the missing?

Don't divert the facts. The question is, are you a gentleman? I only

like to discuss more to the real person and not to phony guys

whom I do not know. At least I respect the person like loga, VR,

BVK sastry, paul, clyde and sathia. At least I had seen their photo

in the web or by other means to prove that they were real

human and gentlemen. I respect their writing whatever views.

Either negative or positives.

Can you give your bio-data to this group and join the club of

gentlemen? Only criminals and nasty thoughts humans will afraid

to identify themselves in public.

I think that the Malaysian authorities should be alerted

to your activities, and start keeping an eye on you.

You should arranged. This coming Sunday we are going to

decapitate seven heads in one of the temples in Malaysia.

Real evidence and interesting to watch.

> > Good gods what a nest of loons!

> Also you are one of the nest...!!!

No, just a stunned and amazed "ornithologist".

Only the loser will tell this and that. I have no time to reply

for your childish comments.

Best regards,

Ambrose.

David


From: David Russell Watson 

Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 4:44 AM

To: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Subject: Warrier

--- In Abhinavagupta@yahoogroups.com, Sunthar wrote:

> 

> Your time's finally up Shakespear Warrier...see what happens to

> cyber-theater when the Evil "manuvâdî zûdra-brahmin" Clown takes

> command of English (apabhramza)!

> 

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3018]

> 

> Sunthar

Why ever would you want to drag the name of the venerable Warrier into this mess, Sunthar? If you knew Warrier like some of us do, you'd be ashamed to act in this way towards him. Please don't tell me you share some common agenda with Akandabaratam's inner circle.

Please leave Warrier alone.

David

 

 


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3101order of thread reversed]

 (Caste-) hierarchy, (cyber-) community, and (founding) violence: (clownish) avatârs of the (sacrificial) scapegoat

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam 

Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005; 8:33 am

 

Propeller Head knows just about everything there is to know about computers and the Internet, and is indignant that you don't. Often an inarticulate and clumsy fighter he is still much to be feared because with a few deft keystrokes he can reduce your computer to a smoking heap of ruined metal - or at least he SAYS [WE say? - SV] he can...

 

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_22.php

 

 

Target is the guy everyone in a forum loves to hate. To some degree he brings this upon himself. For example, he may be a known cheater in a game forum, a conservative among liberals, a Windows guy among Mac enthusiasts, or even a man in a women's forum [smârta brahmin in a nest of 'Dravidianists'? - SV]. Why Target places himself in such dicey situations is anyone's guess, but he seems genuinely oblivious to his precarious position. When Target inevitably runs afoul of a forum's prevailing attitudes the other Warriors unleash their collective fury upon him. His usual reaction is "Hey, what did I do?" or "Why do you all hate me?" Target usually gets the hint after a while and moves on. NOTE: Target often serves as a useful pressure valve for the forum's pent up hostilities. Therefore, if the current Target has been driven off or immobilized a new target will be quickly selected. CAUTION: Target is a favorite disguise of Troller and Evil Clown.

 

Target, http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_67.php

 

 

A Swarm hive [= any community as an expression of human society in general? - SV] is almost impossible to detect. When a hapless victim stumbles on a forum that houses a Swarm and disturbs it with a message that runs counter to its prevailing ideology, the Swarm will erupt without warning. Taken one at a time the irrelevant, often mindless attacks by individuals in a Swarm can be crushed or easily brushed aside, but because of the sheer volume of the assault even the strongest Warriors must yield. WARNING: Only those who are highly skilled in Swarm management techniques should attempt to wade into a Swarm hive. Protective clothing will not prevent a Warrior from getting a few stings.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_68.php

 

No one knoweth whence cometh the Peacemaker, nor whither he goeth. He restoreth peace unto the people. He seeketh neither praise nor glory, but only that all might love one another and that the lamb might lie down with the lion. Anyway, some Warriors have a talent for pouring oil on troubled water. CAUTION: Beware of false messiahs.

 

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_35.php

 

Yet Réné Girard, for whom Christianity remains closer to the truth than psychoanalysis or the other human sciences, seeks to reinterpret the Christian mystery itself in terms of the primordial violence at the heart of humanity, which the archaic religions were regularly and universally compelled to channel into the mechanisms of the sacrificial scapegoat, often the king himself, in order to prevent human society from reverting to undifferentiated chaos, to protect society from man himself. At least one of the Vidûshaka's ritual models was the Vedic deformed human scapegoat upon whom not only the evil of the initiated king but the sins of the whole community were discharged, and the clown as the favorite butt of our aggressive tendencies continues to play this scapegoat role in the drama. [15: For the origins of the hero of Greek tragedy in the ritual scapegoat of archaic Greek religion, see J. P. Vernant and P. Vidal-Naquet, Mythe et Tragédie en Grèce Ancienne, new ed. (Paris: F. Maspero, 1981), their arguments being further developed in Girard, "Oedipe et la victime émissaire," (1972).] Has modern humanity really evolved to such a degree that it can now forgo such specifically religious mechanisms and achieve global unity through purely moral precepts, however noble?

 

Sunthar V., The "Ethical Problem" of Transgressive Sacrality" in Transgressive Sacrality in the Hindu Tradition" (1985)

 

[<page 434>] Archaic religion was universally centered on a deliberate, but carefully delimited, though often violent transgression which, in the founding mechanism of the sacrifice, even assumed the form of ritual(ized) murder. Having posed the problem as to whether the instincts that seek and find expression in these sacralized transgressions could possibly be eradicated in the course of human progress or “if it is a question on the contrary of a sovereign and irreducible part of man, [435>] but which would hide itself from his consciousness? if in a word it is a question of his heart ...?” (loc. cit.), Bataille himself is inclined to the latter view that, to use Indian terminology, the organized sát aspect of life is founded on the original but suppressed chaos ásat which, as the ultimate truth of man's humanity, must be given conscious but circumscribed expression within this very order itself.

 

Sunthar V., "The Royal Murder of the Brahman(ized) DîkSita: The Inner Conflict of Man" (1989)

 

Whereas my mentor Prof. F.B.J. Kuiper had proposed, in his magnum opus, that the 'great' brahmin vidûSaka ('reviler') was actually the transposition within the Sanskrit theater of the (Âtreya) scapegoat (jumbaka) of the Vedic sacrifice and that his comic role would have been due to later misunderstanding on the part of the classical dramaturgists, my own doctoral thesis has established that this function of taking on the evil (pâpa) of the entire community was actually a secondary (though still crucial) derivative of his primary function as violator of brahmanical taboos, and that the clown as the universal butt of collective hostility remained not just a substitute for but also a prolongation of the archaic scapegoat (John Irwin subsequently showed me a private letter from Kuiper admitting, with his characteristic self-effacement, just how wrong he had been...which in no way takes away from the fact that I'd never have taken this brahmin clown seriously without his path-breaking effort!). While the unceasing eloquence of today's 'enlightened' society on the innate nobility, equality, and oneness of all humanity only serves to increasingly highlight, by contrast, the multiplying ravages of our genocidal tendencies, this founding violence was explicitly recognized, institutionalized, and contained in the (Vedic) sacrifice (of the primordial man, from whose members the whole ordered universe was created).

Any functional community is founded on a network of shared representations and values that are necessarily based on a set of collective choices that exclude alternative modes of being together that now become embodied in real or imagined 'dangerous' others. The sacrificial core of the worldwide Islamic umma, defined in opposition to the kafirs beyond the pale, is revealed in the annual reaffirmation of religious bonds through the slaughter of animals (during the Îd festival by those unable to make it to Mecca). This 'scapegoat' mechanism and the term itself has been inherited (like much else...) from the Jewish prototype of the Yom Kippur goat sacrificed by (and identified with...) the High Priest. Whatever the politico-religious tensions that culminated in the crucifixion of Jesus, the (false?) Messiah was promptly identified with the sacrificial lamb of God who takes away the sins of all humanity (apparently Bhairava and VidûSaka are not good enough...so the Hindus still have to be converted!). This underground (psychosocial il-?) logic continues to underly and animate the functioning of much of modern, secular, democratic societies. Athenian democracy, for example, was based not just on the exclusion of foreigners (other Greeks...not just barbarians!) but also on the 'ritual' of ostracism, whereby potential dominators from within (including some of its most 'promising' statesmen) were exiled by common consent arrived at through a 'voting' process after much 'rational' deliberation, debate, and wilfully circulated rumor. The America media only just recently offered the incredulous world the public spectacle of President Clinton's 'legalized' lynching on account of his sexual misdemeanors (Girard claims that the African kings commited incest so as to provide an institutionalized pretext for them to be literally sacrificed at the end of their term...). Despite all the glib discourse on the inevitable worldwide triumph of human liberty, what still underpins the process of globalization is mass-consumerism where everyone (including nation-states like China and India...) is now clamoring for 'equal' access to the same limited (natural) resources. The objects of our (even sexual) desire do not present themselves spontanously but as mediated by society (what others desire), and it is egalitarian societies (per Girard) that are most susceptible to dissolution though generalized violence through such uncontrolled 'mimesis' (imitation).

The challenge in ancient (north-western) India (probably from 2500 BC at least) was all the greater in that a social 'system' (or rather, process) had to be devised that would allow not just the peaceful coexistence but controlled interaction of entirely disparate ethnicities with their own internal norms and jurisdictions, with ever newer groups entering the ever-widening cultural order (and not just as invaders or refugees). The caste-hierarchy is best understood, it seems to me, as an attempt to solve this (now increasingly pressing) problem of (global) diversity by raising the pure brahmin, in principle committed to self-restraint and non-violence, to a position of ultimate authority as knowledge-managers for society as a whole. By disjoining spiritual authority from temporal power, the problem of violence was addressed by allowing economically ambitious and martially-inclined groupings (including invaders from outside) to assume the role of dominant caste (kSatriya), rivalize with, and even destroy each other (recall the Mahâbhârata?) through 'feudal' violence contained within its own 'legitimate' sphere. Not only could no royal dynasty remain long in power without religious endorsement by the brahmins, the ultimate values and sacrificial paradigm embodied by the latter became willy-nilly the frame of reference for the whole of society. Conflict was minimized because desire itself was mediated by the social group into which one was born into, such that the personal ambition typical of a merchant or farmer (vaizya) was, in those times, certainly far from that of the warrior or brahmin. Precisely because the opposition of the pure and the impure, encoded into ritual behavior and the ingrained habits of the body itself, was generalized throughout Indian society regardless of conscious 'cerebral' representations, even those movements (such as Buddhism, Vîra Zaivism, Islam, etc.) that began contesting the caste-order ended up not just succumbing to but perpetuating it despite themselves (is it so surprising that it is especially among 'renegade' brahmins that we find individuals who have been most able to free themselves of caste prejudices?). However, the logical consequence of such an 'organic' approach to social order 'headed' by brahmins was the creation of a vast mass of laboring 'untouchables' prostrate at the feet of Brahmâ. What is astonishing, however, is the ritual ties that tightly bind the brahmin (e.g., at death), and the king, to the untouchable, precisely because of the centrality to 'Hinduism' of the pure/impure opposition. Anthropologists who have actually lived among or have had much intercourse with the lowliest of Indians (as opposed to 'activists' who simply project their own value system and champion the 'dalits' from afar...) have noticed that, until recently, the attitude of the latter has been one of deferential paticipation - but not without a strong sense of their just due within this order - rather than seething revolt. Unlike the American class-system where the uncontested reign of the dollar will persist only so long as everyone, including immigrants, can still share the tantalizing dream of making it rich, the caste-system had been a hierarchy first of social values and only indirectly a gradation of human beings.

The Vedic sacrifice did not seek to 'eliminate' (violence and) chaos but to contain it by placing the act of (killing and) destruction at its very center (recall what happened to DakSa-Prajâpati and the officiating gods themselves when he refused to invite Rudra to his yajña?). The incapacity of any form of (even sacralized) social system to 'resolve' once and for all its inherent tensions, is acknowledged within the brahmanical order by the 'untouchable' Bhairava's 'heinous' decapitation of the inviolable Brahmâ and by the privileged status of the (manu-vâdî?) zûdra-brahmin clown beside the royal hero of the Sanskrit theater. (Super-) Brahmins, like our Abhinavagupta, who sought to universalize their individual consciousness, identified themselves (not with the Vedic Brahmâ but) with the tantric brahmanicide (and the scapegoated VidûSaka?). If these exotic figures are not just the quaint products of an idiosyncratic 'Hindu' imagination but the mythico-ritual encodings of our hidden nature, should we not expect to see the same logic resurfacing even within the emerging and still uncertain forms of cyber-community, and even more explicitly so in online forums devoted to 'passionate' debates about caste? The indispensable (even if mobile) target of collective hostility, the scapegoat is invariably projected as not just a transgressor, often endowed with (dark) 'magical' powers (conferred by Lord Munîshwara?), but even as an irredeemable criminal. Just as the mythical figure of the wandering Jew was accused of spreading the plague by deliberately posioning the Christian wells of Medieval Europe, these days the primordial scapegoat also assumes the elusive (NRI?) form of the IT-brahmin who not only muddies the communal watering-holes of the Internet but is even capable (pace Bill Gates) of taking control of your computer (and penetrating through the windows of your mind?). Just as we can see the 'Jewish hand' in world affairs, even in hoisting the intern Lewinski upon the unsuspecting 'populist' hero Clinton, Dravidianist forums are in constant danger of being infiltrated and subverted by 'untouchable' (zûdra) brahmins masquerading under multiple including the most unexpected and even non-existent identities (like our Dalit Christian Malarvizhi!). Curiously enough, the more the (great?) brahmin (or Western Indologist?) is scapegoated, the more he insists on obligingly assuming this role by living up to the imposed stereotype. Securing our Internet communications against such 'propeller heads' ('shit-head' seems to be the preferred term in the 'orthodox' Hindu version of 'Indian Civilization' for unrepenting defenders of AMT...) requires the development of a more sophisticated branch of forensic science that is capable of proving (despite their repeated and insistent denials...) that different individuals are indeed the same person and/or that the same person is (mis-) using multiple online IDs through a (subjective?) play of 'resemblances' (Venkatisms?). For René Girard, our societies are possible only because we are all "living a life of lies and deception," which is why the Christ - in his attempt to expose the primordial logic of the (pre-existing) sacrificial order - commanded Satan, the embodiment of (divine?) Lying, to "get Thee behind Me!"

Now, in cyber-theater, we see Him so clearly - in front of us - reduced to harmless 'innocence'...though multiplied into a bunch of (evil?) clowns!

Enjoy!

Sunthar

P.S. To facilitate your reading of this 'high-tech sacrificial' discourse, I've highlighted in brown the relevant text in the digest below .

 

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar / Paul (Mar 25, 2005 )

"Re: Castes (of mind), (cyber-) identity, and flame-warriors on the Internet - who is/killed Malarvizhi?"]

GOD: the ultimate Flame-Warrior who wins (us all over) without fighting a single battle?

The “interview with God”—beautifully illustrated through His own natural handiwork—highlights the emotional (limbic) dimension of religious devotion and human bonding. While forwarding the URL received from Jack Park to our Dia-Gnosis forum, I felt compelled to make it relevant by interrogating our diverse ways of (conceptually) ‘representing’ the Ultimate principle (whether God, the Void, the Brahman, the Tao, or the Matrix) that has been at the root of religious conflicts in the past and comparing this global predicament to the philosophical issues that underpin the technical problems of name-resolution for meaningful communication across cyberspace. Juxtaposing these two otherwise disparate domains is all the more valid because ‘God’ (however you may choose to call Him…or rather HER?) has become not just a major instigator and amplifier of the cacophony that reigns over Internet forums supposedly dedicated to His defense but gets mixed up in disputes with educational boards trying determine how He ought to be addressed in schoolbooks for American ten-year olds: so much so that what we are really left with seems to be in fact only so many ‘gods’ whether Hindu, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, tribal!

[This Act will be completed after my response to Steve’s post in the light of the California SBE disputes - SV]


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3020order of thread reversed]

 Humor

From: Jack Park 

Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:00 AM

To: undisclosed-recipients:

Thanks BillD,

For some raw beauty, visit

http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/windowmovie2.html

I almost never send along "blonde" jokes, but...

[deleted - SV]


Subject:

 "An Interview with God" - whose Word (Logos) now works its natural wonders through digital imagery!

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005; 4:52 am

These days when there are so many 'forums' devoted to advocating religions of love (? and wisdom?) but that seem to be filled with only hate (and ignorance), some of you—especially devotees of (not just 'religious') aesthetics—might appreciate this "Interview with God"!

Sunthar

 

P.S. Thanks for sending this along Jack!


Subject:

 [God] [Abhinava msg #3839order of thread reversed]

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005; 7:21 am

In the beginning, before bandwidth, there was nothingness. Out of that endless void God and His heavenly host created...Arpanet, and it was good. But the scientific, military and computer angels Who dwelled in Arpanet were lonely, so They brought forth Browser, and the Web was born. It, too, was good and the children of the Internet lived in peace and harmony and were fruitful and multiplied, but God warned His people not to eat of the forbidden fruit of commercialism [, public forums, knowledge of Good and Evil, and stale humor? - SV]. Alas, they disobeyed and soon barbarians [flame warriors? -SV] drove the children of the Internet out of Paradise. God, in His wrath, turned away from His people and condemned them to wander in the digital wilderness, but from time to time He will suddenly appear in mailing lists, chat rooms, and discussion forums to remind us sinners that we could be saved if only we would hearken unto Him.

God, http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_75.php 

These days He has taken to advertising the Semantic Web, Knowledge Management, and Topic Maps as the universal panacea for the (not just intercultural) communication problems of our contemporary Tower of Babel.....

.....after all, the (radical?) Kabbalists had already taken their 'theurgy' one step further by claiming that God needs man to restore his Unity (tahweed) by collectively reconstituting his (fragmented and unspeakable) Name!

Sunthar


Subject:

 Re: "An Interview with God" - whose Word (Logos) now works its natural wonders through digital imagery!

From: Steven R. Newcomb 

Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 8:08 PM

To: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Cc: dia-gnosis@yahoogroups.com; Indo-Roma@yahoogroups.com; akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com; IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com

Sunthar, thank you for sharing this.

I think it's interesting to juxtapose two Genesis stories: Adam's divinely-assigned task of naming everything, and the Babel story.

Tim Berners-Lee's vision of endowing everything with at least one URI can be compared with Adam's naming task.  The inevitable result of Tim's vision—a situation in which there is an unbounded number of ways to address anything and everything—can be compared to the situation at the conclusion of the Babel story.

The Kabbalist claim you mention compares very interestingly to the ISO Topic Maps Reference Model's objective of facilitating the possibility of making many ways of addressing the same thing resolve to the same place.  (http://www.isotopicmaps.org/TMRM/TMRM-latest.pdf)

Steve

Steven R. Newcomb,

Consultant

Coolheads Consulting

Co-editor, Topic Maps International Standard (ISO 13250)

Co-drafter, Topic Maps Reference Model

>

http://www.coolheads.com

> 


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3839]

 Rewiring religious traditions, semantic webs, and neural networks - 'representing' (the Unity of) God on the Internet!

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006; 6:01 pm

Another issue the Witzel panel disapproved was to use upper-case 'G'  for God when referring to Hindu worship of God. Commissioner Levine  noted that for Hindus there are many forms of the one God. [Levine was  unwittingly resurrecting an old scholastic technique for reconciling  polytheism with monotheism!]

Hindus requested one sentence in one book be changed from saying,  'Modern Hindus continue to visit temples to express their love of the  gods,' to '...visit temples to worship and express their love for God.'  This was rejected by Witzel's group, but accepted by the Commission.  Similar changes were accepted throughout the books.

Cited in Steve Farmer (Dec 31, 2005, Indo-Eurasia),

Eyewitness Reports: Dec. 2nd Calif. Curriculum Commission Meeting

"What's in a name? Would God by any other Name (not) mean the Same?" - (quotable quote from Yours Truly!)

Dear Steve,

In case our friends in Topic Maps Land haven't heard, there's a growing international controversy (over the still pending but highly contested decision by the California State Board of Education as to) whether Hindus worship many 'gods' or just God through many names (and forms)...

http://www.pluralism.org/news/index.php?xref=California+Textbook+Controversy&sort=DESC

We are putting together a 'collaborative' cyber-production of Mike Reed's gallery of Flame-Warriors to celebrate the New Year saturnalia:

http://www.svabhinava.org/Dia-Gnosis/DialoguesDiagnosis/FlameWarriors-frame.htm

Thanks again for your perceptive remarks and my apologies for forwarding them so late.

With best wishes for the New Year (to everyone),

Sunthar

P.S. My long-overdue response to your remarks below on the (nameless?) 'God' of Topic Maps has been simmering since March in my Drafts folder.

Subject: [Abhinava msg #3051]

 Re: Castes (of mind), (cyber-) identity, and flame-warriors on the Internet - who is/killed Malarvizhi?

From: Nandakumar Chandran

Date: Fri Mar 25, 2005; 6:30 am

 

…a point I made publicly to Dipesh Chakraborti last year when he >resorted to Aristotle in search of an explanation for mass violence >in the streets of Marxist Bengal...

as bhartrhari says : without language there cannot be thought (ie one always thinks in some language or the other).

if one loses the capability to think in one's native language and is forced to use an alien language, it is simply mental hijacking where the mind is forced to co-relate/retrofit native situations with alien categories.

yes there's some benefit in such a process (even as indians have benefitted from the fruits of western industrialization). but there's also a great deal of negatives which come with it (incapacity to think naturally/originally, unconcious subservience to the (ex) colonial master/culture and thus unconcious lack of self- respect etc).

more than anything this is the greatest harm done to the indian peoples during colonial rule.

Nandakumar


Subject:

 [All Caps, Grammarian, and Loopy]

From: [Sunthar Visuvalingam]

Date: Fri Mar 25, 2005; 6:30 am

ALLCAPS attempts to compensate for his limited rhetorical weaponry through the extravagant use of capitalized words - something netizens refer to as SHOUTING. Sure, a sprinkling of capitalized words can add spice to an attack, but overuse is like too much tarragon in the stew. Even worse from a tactical point of view, too much shouting alerts other Warriors to the opponent's verbal WEAKNESS and emotional EXCITABILITY.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_32.php

 

 Grammarian usually has little to contribute to a discussion and possesses few effective weapons. To compensate, he will point out minor errors in spelling and grammar. Because of Grammarian's obvious weakness most Warriors ignore him.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_30.php

 

 Garble is a mystery: Is he a foreigner with only tenuous grasp of English? Is his brain addled by some powerful drug? Does he suffer a serious mental debility? Is he typing wearing a catcher's mit? Garble's rampant typos, malapropisms and seemingly aggressive use of execrable grammar can't be explained merely in terms of poor typing skills or the lack of a spell checker. Even non-English speakers generally do a better job of punctuation grammar and capitalization, and Garble is all the more puzzling because if one goes to the trouble of wading through the muddle of his messages a discernable idea will usually emerge. For example, in a forum discussion about a painting he might say, "Sorry the picchr the har is wrog. The culir. I liike the lips bot teh Paintng is sucs". When attacked for his random capitalization Garble might respond, "oPS i HITTED THE CAPDLOCK". Not surprisingly, he drives Grammarian and Nitpick absolutely nuts, but he is utterly impervious to any sort of correction and if their attacks persist he will sign off in a huff with something like, "yuor forum si stupef. bYE!" CAUTION: Garble may be Net Rat.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_79.php

Hello Nandakumar,

It's just as easy (lazy?) to type only in capital letters with CAPS LOCK on as it is to type only in lowercase, and yet we know that ALL CAPS are not welcome at (if not actually banned from...) most sober Internet forums. If I allowed you to continue taking liberties in this matter, I may have to rescind my earlier regulations against posting messages in multiple colors and font sizes (as Ralph was doing at the outset for 'aesthetic' reasons invoking Abhinavagupta!) or including large citations and even 'original' fragments in (incorrect) Sanskrit (as Chanchal Bhattacharya = John Bee) was doing before he unsubscribed in a huff on account of my 'pedantry'...

The Rigvedic poet-craftsmen often deliberately violated the rules of orthography, syntax, grammar, etc., in order to multiply and intensify the symbolic power of (the 'divine') language (Renou), but they did this sparingly and with good reason (even if we are no longer able to make sense now of many of the liberties they took). Such 'contrary speech' was inherited and retained by the VidûSaka of the Sanskrit theater, whose often unintelligible 'jokes' start to make profound sense once we start taking him seriously (something that our Indian 'Shakespeare Warriors' seem quite incapable of...).

There is nothing to stop you from launching a forum to celebrate the poetry and linguistic innovations of ee cummings, and argue for yet another dialect of 'indian english' inspired by his genius. Having done my doctorate on the 'great brahmin' clown, I'm certainly no stickler for grammatical correctness for its own sake (has anyone here kept count of the 'neologisms' with which I've freely sprinkled my own prose on this list?). However, I don't want to see us sliding down a slippery slope to end up an online circus of garbled clowns!

Thanks.

 Sunthar

P.S. I'm allowing this through but future posts will require some effort on your part on (re-) locating the Shift key for approval.

[Open Stage]

[This emptiness is the large world-stage where the other Flame warriors are yet to make their appearance! – SV]

 

 

Is a member of this virtual community accountable for his behavior in another forum?


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3125]

 Is Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?

From: David Russell Watson

Date: Sun May 8, 2005; 6:23 pm

--- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, S.Kalyanaraman wrote:

- edit -

Wait till I post about the Akhanda Bharatam which will absorb many of the so-called nation-states.

We need a Hindu mahâ-sâgar parivâr to cherish the mleccha heritage. Do the cybalist people know about a language called mleccha mentioned in Mahâbhârata?

Dhanyavâdah.

[Kalyanaraman]

See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/74751

where “Dr.” Kalyanaraman refers to his dream for S.E. Asia.

David


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3126]

 Re: Is Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?

From: Mary Hicks

Date: Mon May 9, 2005; 11:00 am

On 5/8/05, David Russell Watson wrote:

See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/74751

where “Dr.” Kalyanaraman refers to his dream for S.E. Asia. [David]

Is it possible for you to provide a comment upon another's observation (from another thread, no less) without resorting to invective?


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3169]

 Re: Is Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?

From: David Russell Watson

Date: Mon May 9, 2005; 1:50 pm

--- In Abhinavagupta@yahoogroups.com, Mary Hicks wrote:

Is it possible for you to provide a comment upon another's observation (from another thread, no less)…

Actually, from another list, no less.

…without resorting to invective?

It is certainly possible, but mere commentary was not my end.

Now, do you have any thoughts on the crackpot's agenda to share?

David


Subject:

 [Tireless Rebutter]

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Mon May 9, 2005; 1:50 pm

For Tireless Rebutter there is no such thing as a trivial dispute. He regards all challenges as if the barbarians were battering at the gates. His unflagging tenacity in making his points numbs and eventually wears down the opposition. Confident that his arguments are sound, Tireless Rebutter can't understand why he is universally loathed.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_20.php

Kalyan's posting rights to this forum had been promptly suspended on Dec 26, 2004, after his obnoxious comments on the Christian deaths at Vellangani caused by the tsunami last Xmas:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/2532

Why then simply keep on abusing him here when he no longer has the right of response? It would have been preferable to accompany the citation with at least some (attempt at) diagnosis of why Hindus are so upset with Western Indology and an analysis of how they might be making things even worse for themselves (which is why I reluctantly approved your original post).

Instead we have the usual disruptive role of 'agent provocateur'...

Sunthar

P.S. With 'leaders' (Führers?) like these to lead their 'Vedic' revival, Hindus have surely no need of any enemies....

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (May 22, 2005)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3168

What is Haoma/Soma...sage Nârada on cyberspace rampage? ]

Loopy, Troller, etc.:


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3266order of thread reversed]

 Re: Geopolitics and Sanskrit Phobia

From: [Troy Dean Harris]

Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005; 4:34 pm

Why did Troyji bring in a label here where none was necessary? Is it not possible to discuss an issue on its own merits? Even assuming that Rajivji is projecting a Hindutva viewpoint, irrespective of whether he is a votary of Hindutva or not? [Ashokji]

Dear Ashok,

I am a serious researcher in the field of rhetoric. This interested is shown in my recent Grafting Plato's Shadow Play: A Spray Can Version of Metaleptic Mimêsis. What you have alluded to in your post [excerpted above] is the gist of my natural and unreserved inquiry into an apparent perceived rhetorical position. My interest lays almost exclusively in the language, therefore the rhetoric, and also – but somewhat more incidentally – the viewpoint. Please remember that I posed my question as, [quote] <<Is this what is called a "hindutva" viewpoint?>> [unquote].

I had actually already continuated my discourse in a post entitled Towards a New Sanskriti. I composed this – by the way – prior to Ravi's [Rajiv's] response appearing on the list. Due to present editorial preferences, however (or perhaps), my Towards a New Sanskriti has not yet appeared on the list. Not to worry[1]. Should you or anyone care to review it, I warmly extend my open invitation to all, and would appreciate constructive comments too, on or off the list, as you wish.

Om,

Sritantra

Note to text [1] The weblog version may be better, anyway. I am afraid that 3 of the five intertextual hyperlinks to images of Vat Phu Sanctuary, southern Laos, were faulty in the version I posted to the list. References Sritantra 2005. Grafting Plato's Shadow Play: A Spray Can Version of Metaleptic Mimêsis http://a-grafting-of-shadow.blogspot.com/

Sritantra 2005. Towards a new sanskriti http://bauddhamata.blogspot.com/2005/07/towards-new-sanskriti.html

Sritantra 2005. Present editorial preferences http://torrid-zone-shade.blogspot.com/2005/07/present-editorial-preferences.html

[In response to a post by Ashok Chowgule

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3256.]


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3266]

 [Troller]

From: [Sunthar Visuvalingam]

Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005; 4:34 pm

 Troller is looking for a response...ANY response, and he will chum the waters with complaints, insults, compliments, and inflammatory tidbits hoping that someone...ANYONE, will take the bait. Generally quite harmless—practices a form of catch and release. Nonetheless, he can upset the delicate ecology of a discussion forum. Once a forum becomes aware of his presence, however, all feeding activity ceases and Troller must move on to more promising waters.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_28.php

No point responding further to provocations from this "Buddhist" vidûSaka (whose Prakrit 'rhetoric' would make even the "father of Sanskrit Kâvya," the venerable AzvaghoSa wince in regret...), as I've already pulled the plug on him (i.e., he's forfeited his rights to post to this forum).

Regards,

Sunthar (monitor)

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (Jun 20, 2004)

"Moderating an discussion group - democracy, kin(g)ship and regicide on the Internet :-)"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/2007]


 

Subject: [Abhinava msg #3267order of thread reversed]

 Towards a new sanskriti

From: [Troy Dean Harris]

Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005; 3:58 am

It has been suggested to me that the term hindutva may be best understood as; first of all, an offshoot of the belief in essential things, and that essential things may further be worth being. As affects itself, then, hindutva is the belief in an essential thing widely referred to as hindu, and that this thing called hindu is essentially worth being. Now the word's etymology is also a little curious; in so far as hindu- more or less stems from a Persian root, while -tva is a clear suffixation of sanskriti. Thus is hindutva typically rendered into the English language as hindu-ness.

*

But what combination of shades might we pinch off sanksriti's rich palette of blush and dye to compound a more alluring taste for the tongue to softly tender and inflect, say, ... hindu-ish?

*

Falling short of discursive habit and traditional twang of elliptical vagary would actually mark a blessing in disguise; but not to lag light years to the rear in non-figurative sinew and subtly sampled conveyance borne via plain intimation and insinuation...

O, but more than just a myth, sanskriti is the polish of a nuclear tongue that splits the diamond and frees its vernacular of aniconic mute things.

Sanskriti is a sentiment adjoining thinker to the charmed release of gracious ideation through the honoured visitation of savage sites, say:

The Vat Phu sanctuary oddly aesthetic like a derelict dragon over soft sorrel gradient, poised on the ruinous verge of elegance, crutched in a landscape stripped of wood, with disintegrating yonis cracked and abandoned, custodial seats of the elemental lichen, lined long the high-walled corridor incised in the traumas of the vanished primordial Khmer.

Sanskriti is acquitting all slim divergence soon self-warranting away and array of acute continuity spent to profusions strewn and stretched over swells that ply, and imply an appealing scenic moon as pivots millennial scores lambasting dullards' vision of an unimpeded text as gold as the thrashings scattered on the floor here, husks and chaff in chance arrangement.

References

Vat Phu Sanctuary southern Laos. Photographs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 compliments of Willard Van De Bogart http://www.earthportals.com/Portal_Messenger/stonesinsky10.html.

[Inspired by R. Malhotra's post

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3237 and

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hindu-Buddhist/message/313]


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3267]

 [Loopy]

From: [Sunthar Visuvalingam]

Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005; 3:58 am

In his 1775 Restoration comedy, The Rivals, Richard Sheridan introduced a humorous character by the name of Mrs. Malaprop. The name is derived from the French mal à propos, which means inappropriate (we also have the word malapropos in English), and describes the manner in which she used many words in her speech. See some Mrs. Malaprop quotations here.

The self-educated Mrs. Malaprop was always substituting a similar-sounding word for the word that she actually intended, often with the consequence of a hilariously nonsensical sentence. The name Malaprop has been immortalised in the form of the malapropism, any sentence in which one word has been used incorrectly in place of another. Malapropism examples.

These slips are sometimes divided into two broad classes: classical malapropisms, in which the mistakes are due to ignorance (as in the case of Mrs. Malaprop), and temporary slips of the tongue, in which the intended word is known by the speaker, but has been inadvertently replaced by another.

http://www.fun-with-words.com/mala_explain.html

 

Don't try to understand Loopy's messages—they will forever remain opaque to all but himself. Loopy is easily aroused and exuberant in battle and fearlessly flings himself at any Warrior—even Kung-Fu Master. Loopy's main weapons consist of a disarming array of nonsequiturs, tautologies, and bizarre metaphors, which can often gain him an advantage in the initial stages of an attack. Combatants very quickly realize, however, that Loopy is a certifiable nut case and generally avoid further engagement, although Jerk and Evil Clown sometimes egg Loopy on for their own amusement. CAUTION: Loopy cannot be defeated with conventional weapons. Any response to his attacks will often provoke a fusillade of incoherent messages. HINT: If ignored, Loopy will continue to clatter and foam until Nanny removes him from the discussion forum.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_45.php

-----

In response to Rajiv's column—which offers several listings of main points covered, clearly spells out his agenda, and whose substance and implications are being debated vigorously at Sulekha—a mere insinuation regarding 'Hindutva' (with absolutely no arguments), is thrust upon us. When queried as to his own intentions, Bhikkhu Malaprop rains his 'rhetoric' upon us. So now we have come to this: Americans, who can't even spell in their native tongue (especially considering that there were 4 South Asian kids topping the recent U.S. Spelling Bee...), offering (Tantric?) sermons (in sandhyâ-bhâSâ?) on 'culture' to (disabused?) Asians....?

Enjoy!

Sunthar (monitor)

[Rest of this thread at

"Re: Geopolitics and Sanskrit Phobia" (Jul 13/16, 2005)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3266]

Subject: [Abhinava msg #3296]

 PalAyadhvam, palAyadhvam, re re duSkavi kunjarah

From: Radhakrishna Warrier

Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005; 9:40 am

Sunthar has been very mild on those who have transgressed the posting guidelines of the 'Abhinavagupta' forum (including self). Some of these transgressors (self NOT included) haven't bothered about basic nettiquette. Yet all that Sunthar would do is to point out a flame warrior, and with a very mildly admonishing tone say "however, this time I am allowing the post through". I would like to see at least once (but not this time, however !) Sunthar roar like the famous Uddanda Shastrikal of yore "PalAyadhvam, palAyadhvam, re re duSkavi kunjarah" (Get lost, get lost, ye elephants of bad poetry), just changing duSkavi (bad poet) to some Sanskrit equivalent of duS-poster.

Now that I have brought up Uddanda Shastrikal, let me dwell briefly on the sUcita kathA (the story hinted at). Uddanda Shastrikal was uddaNDa (extaordinary, literally one who holds up a staff) not just in name but in deed too. According to the Namboodiris (Malayala brahmins) this 'lowly' PaTTar (Tamil brahmin) had the dhArSTya (audacity) to defeat them, the kavi kunjara-s, in the 'Revati PaTTattAnam", the annual scholarly debates conducted by the Zamorins of Calicut. On his journeys from Tamil Nadu to Calicut to take part in the annual scholarly debates, the Shastrikal would shout loud, in synchronism with his foot steps through the thick forest that separated the Tamil and Malayalam lands "Get lost, get lost, ye elephants of bad poetry, uddaNDa kesari ("uddanda the lion") of the Vedanta forests is coming your way", ostensibly to frighten away the elephants of the forest but in reality to rub a little salt into the wounds of the defeated Namboodiris. Well, the Namboodiris couldn't be outsmarted for long by a mere PaTTar. There came Kakkasseri Bhattatiri, from the abode of the crow (kAkka+zEri), who easily and thoroughly vanquished the haughty uddanda kesari. Kakkasseri was famous for his habit of remaining in "mauj, masti" under the influence of the cool "KaLLu" (toddy).

Thanks and regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

Subject: [Abhinava msg #3390order of thread reversed]

 New Debating Tool

From: Jack Paulus

Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:31 AM

To: ontologicalethics-owner@yahoogroups.com

Ontological Ethics Owner,

We would like to introduce a new web-based tool that is designed to foster focused, rational debate. This tool is free (and will remain so) and it may be a perfect complement to your Yahoo group for while it does not reproduce any Yahoo group functionality it does provide an additional mechanism for rational dialogue that may be of interest to some of your members. As the owner of this group we feel that you are the best person to decide if this might be useful to your members so we will make no attempt to contact your membership directly.

This tool works in two stages. First, the tool steps an individual (or team) through breaking down their argument into its basic deductive structure which exposes the core of the argument. Second, users are permitted to critique any statement in this structure which may begin an in-place conversation on this single point; by keeping this conversation in-place through revisioning within the deductive context the debaters can not digress and the discussion remains focused.

Any topic can have arbitrary teams of users as defenders, critics and even those who may score topics which, in addition, makes it ideal for group use.

 Some sample topics for this new tool may be found here: (choose "View Critiques" to see the in-place critique discussions)

http://www.truthmapping.com/viewtopic.php?id=220

http://www.truthmapping.com/viewtopic.php?id=230

http://www.truthmapping.com/viewtopic.php?id=232

More information on how this tool addresses the limitations of conversation, e-mail and message boards can be found here: http://www.truthmapping.com/about.php

And the main page is, of course: http://www.truthmapping.com

This is a free, volunteer created and maintained site whose goal is simply to elevate debate. No setup in required; simply come on in and try it out. Enjoy.

Thank you,

Jack

TruthMapping.com

p.s. Also, feel free to recommend any topic categories that would best meet the needs of your group.

p.p.s. And please excuse the lack of content for this site is brand new. Please help us elevate debate!


Subject:

 New Debating Tool - please check out Jack Paulus website devoted to 'truth-mapping'

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam

Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005; 10:36 am

Hello Jack,

Thank you very much for making your new web-based debating tool available to our various (cross-cultural) discussion groups (not just Ontological Ethics) which have witnessed (sometimes heated) controversy over almost any topic imaginable. By obliging debaters to break down their arguments into their logical components, such a structuring tool forces us to become aware of our often unconscious presuppositions (bias) and blind spots. I therefore encourage members to familiarize themselves with your tool, propose fresh categories, and apply these principles.

It seems to me, however, that such linear approaches to collective reasoning need to be complemented (certainly not replaced!) by the judicious use of 'circuitous 'logic that exploits modes of thinking reflected in rhetoric, myth, ritual, etc. I see the primary function of the forums I moderate as 'understanding' rather than some elusive ideal of 'agreement' on controversial issues. The difference is that understanding expands by (constantly) redefining context and seeing hidden (logical and other) interconnections, a process in which 'noise' needs to be somehow (collectively) managed but not eliminated. More recently, I've begun to catalogue and illustrate (precisely on the basis of such noise and infractions) the various 'personality' (stereo-) types that one regularly encounters on Internet forums, so that others may more readily recognize their presence and learn how best to cope with them; and, hopefully, to help these 'personalities' through a process of self-therapy:

http://www.svabhinava.org/Dia-Gnosis/DialoguesDiagnosis/FlameWarriors-frame.htm

Moderator of several Internet forums devoted to interreligious dialogue, hence broaching 'articles of faith' through an appropriate form of reason, my own interest in the promise and pitfalls of Internet communications stems from my researches into knowledge management (1999 onwards) including Topic Maps. I hope that the above Dia-Gnosis outreach site will gradually serve as a platform for pooling and showcasing the complementary efforts of the several pioneers and ongoing contributors to this still uncharted territory, such as Jeff Conklin:

http://www.svabhinava.org/Dia-Gnosis/JeffConklin/default.htm

http://cognexus.org/


I had already drafted my above response in early June but was planning to amplify and post it only after having completed the digest of flame-warrior posts. As this still seems to be long way off, I'm glad that you resent an abridged version yesterday of your earlier post below.

So in the meantime, I'd still invite you to promote and clarify the workings of your truth-mapping tool at our related Dia-Gnosis forum:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dia-gnosis/

With best wishes for your efforts,

Sunthar

Subject: [Abhinava msg #3558order of thread reversed]

 Re: Indian ethics [vs normativitis: Is the Abhinava forum moderator a Netiquette Nazi? - sv]

From: Mary Hicks 

Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005; 12:04 pm

Normally in most societies one can find varied and often opposed theories. Nobody is questioning that. But the question here which is dominant [incomplete sentence? - SV]. [Sunthar]

Sunthar, please fire the grammarian presiding over this forum.  It's demeaning to an individual whose visible limitation may be that English is not his native tongue.  Would you correct someone sitting across the room from you, someone who may have conversant to varying degrees in half a dozen languages?

People cheered Kennedy years ago when in Berlin he addressed the crowd in German: "Ich bin ein Berliner."  He couldn't say anything else, but he made an effort to bridge the chasm by which language separates us.

(And from Google, his phrase contains a linguistic mistake:   QUESTION: "There has been an ongoing discussion of this sentence by JFK. I was always under the impression that one does not use the indefinite article (ein) with occupations or nationalities, such as "ich bin Lehrer" not "ich bin ein Lehrer" or "ich bin Amerikaner" not "ich bin ein Amerikaner." Although Berlin is a city and not a country, would this explain the so-called " mistake" or was it merely that the phrase has two meanings?"

For myself, I would apologize that I, as conversationalist or listener, am unable to speak one of THEIR languages.

Unsolicited correction of another's speech also sets up a hierarchical dynamic: "I'm better/more learned/more facile that you."  And, you're telling a lot of people about this faculty of yours.

Please.

Mary

[Response to Moderator's gloss on Nandakumar's post (Nov 10, 2005) at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3499]


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3558]

 [Netiquette Nazi]

From: Sunthar Visuvalingam 

Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005; 12:04 pm

Netiquette Nazi is in control and she does not tolerate backtalk. The guidelines for every discussion forum are clearly posted and she demands obedience. If any of you sniveling dogs break the rules or deviate from strict observance of netiquette you WILL be punished.

Netiquette Nazi, Flame Warriors on the Internet, Politics Forum

------------------

P.S. I'd request that members not respond to this post until I'm able get around to clarifying some aspects of moderating a forum.

Thanks.

Sunthar

[Rest of this thread at Moderator comments on Vishnubhai's post (Nov 3, 2005) at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3551]


Subject: [Abhinava msg #3568]

 Re: Indian ethics [vs normativitis: Is the Abhinava forum moderator a Netiquette Nazi? - sv]

From: Nandakumar Chandran

Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005; 6:05 am

Mary,

I myself (bad grammar again?) didn't take any offense.

I think Sunthar merely wanted to clarify whether the sentence was complete.

I think the "is" is missing after the "here.”

Beyond that I can't find any use for Wren and Martin here - but that's my level of proficiency in English grammar.

Yes, Mr.Moderator can be a control freak :-), but I've to accept that he has valid reasons.

Normally in most societies one can find varied and often opposed > theories. Nobody is questioning that. But the question here which is dominant [incomplete sentence? - SV]. [Sunthar]

Sunthar, please fire the grammarian presiding over this forum. It's demeaning to an individual whose visible limitation may be that English is not his native tongue. Would you correct someone sitting across the room from you, someone who may have conversant to varying degrees in half a dozen languages? [Mary]

[Response to Sunthar's comments on Mary's post (Nov 10-13, 2005) at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3558]

---------------------

Hello Nandakumar,

In this particular instance, I did not understand what you were saying and thought you might have forgotten to complete your thought. My insert was an invitation (instead of holding up your post), on everyone's behalf, for you to clarify (and not to point out a grammatical error). We already have enough traffic generated by substantive differences in opinion that I, as moderator, try to minimize the role of the language factor. It was only on reading Paul's citation of that paragraph a couple of exchanges down the road that I realized there was an "is" missing (which I inserted).

"But the question here [is] which [theory] is dominant."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3501

Actually, I make heavy but invisible edits (mostly of typos and punctuation) to practically all the posts that perhaps only some have noticed (and thanked me for...especially those whose native language is not English!). No one (else) has complained so far...

This greatly eases the sort of compilation work of Divya, and others, because much of the editing has been already done upstream (a basic principle of quality control...). Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of someone else proofing my own remarks (and posts).

Regards,

Sunthar

P.S. I've allowed this response through because the objection was raised on your (un-) 'offended' behalf but, again, but I'm not approving any further (especially cheeky...) posts on this issue until I'm able to find the time to clarify my 'editorial' policies.

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (Mar 25, 2005)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3051]