This digest is
an analytical reflection on the unprecedented problems, best practices, and collective
goals of cyber-dialogue by drawing our attention to the most typical
flame-warriors caught in the act of falling into their predefined stereotype.
While the larger context is provided by my exchange, from May 28, 2001 onwards,
with
The following compilations of exchanges may be enjoyed as successive disjointed Acts in an ongoing cyber-drama that flouts all the (Aristotelian) conventions regarding unity of time and place, with no discernible beginning, collective purpose, nor satisfactory denouement, and where the same characters often (re-) appear in varied, shifting, and sometimes even contradictory roles. For the sake of intelligibility, I have repeatedly stepped out to assume the role of ‘stage-manager’ (sūtra-dhāra) to introduce each Act by providing its context, leitmotif, cross-purposes, and ensuing moral, before stepping back in (and not just as the ‘mischievous’ clown-vidūṣaka!) to ensure that this all-encompassing and ongoing drama does not get entirely derailed. For, quite apart from the individual battle-scarred warriors, otherwise caught up in themselves, who have had to make a permanent exit (like the demons asuras who attempted to disrupt Bharata’s first-ever performance of the Sanskrit theater?), we spectator-participants would otherwise end up having to close down this theater that is not just a ‘mirror of the world’ (lokānukīrtanam) of appearances but also of its hidden mainsprings. Some of the more significant and/or extended Acts indeed beautifully ‘act out’ the (all-too?) ‘human’ etiology of very problem that the participants are ostensibly attempting to resolve: a newly-launched forum to break down barriers between Indologists and Hindus that self-destructs immediately thereafter due to squabbles over ‘moderation’; collective (verbal) violence against brahmins that illustrates the scapegoat dynamics that may help clarify the original rationale behind the caste-system; idiosyncratic punctuation, grammar, and style, that undermines the effective communication and sympathetic reception of the intended message; [to be completed]
We owe a hearty thanks and deep appreciation to artist Mike Reed (we have his explicit blessings) for making his gallery of Flame-Warriors available so freely on the Internet and captioning each with such apt and amusing descriptions (all the images here are actually linked back to his original site). Please visit his original site and get your own signed print of your favorite Flame-Warrior, so as to ensure that he does not fall into the hand of Communists. I do sincerely hope that this illustrated “Politics of Acculturation” digest will bring his work the wide global and serious attention it richly deserves.
I have inserted introductory comments to contextualize some of the posts [Do let me know if your views have been inadvertently omitted or distorted: this is an evolving archive!]. Having decided to make this archive available to the public, I would like to offer some concise clarifications—a conceptual grid as it were—of my own take on the various perspectives that are under scrutiny in this discussion:
Related materials at svAbhinava:
Correspondence with Jeff Conklin on dialogue-mapping
Posting Guidelines for the Abhinavagupta forum
Overview
– why dialogues?
[to be redacted]
This compilation will
be eventually complemented by others including those listed above; in the meantime
please check out the (incomplete)
Index to
threads below on “Flame Warriors on the Internet” digest:
These index entries are clustered into separate Acts. The headings at the top, introducing each Act, point to my contextualization of the following digest in terms of group-dynamics. The larger flush-left entries, usually at the bottom of each Act, are the flame-warrior posts (invariably from Sunthar), whereas the indented smaller-font entries sandwiched in-between are the illustrative exchanges. If some of the connections and/or allusions are not clear, readers are advised to follow the links to the Abhinava forum to resituate the dialogue in full unedited context:
Issue-Based Information Systems & the Abhinavagupta
project
More on
Issue-Based Information Systems & the Abhinavagupta project....
Re: More on
Issue-Based Information Systems & the Abhinavagupta project....
May I post
your chapter on the Friends page of our web-site?
Re: linear
versus threaded discussion for Abhinavagupta forum...
Linear
versus Threaded discussion - how to Dia-Gnose across knowledge communities
Mike Reed - A Netizen’s Guide to
Flame-Warriors
The Administrator - Is the Abhinava forum a
(procedural) ‘democracy’ or a ‘dictatorship’?
Religious
traditions, globalization and the Internet: problems in cross-cultural
communication
Open
archives? (Response to Malhotra's argument)
Re: Open
archives? (Response to Malhotra's argument)
Moderating a discussion group
- democracy, kin(g)ship, and regicide on the Internet :-)
[Godzilla, Xenophobe, Duelists, Archivist,
Jerk, Nanny]
[Godzilla, Xenophobe,
Duelists, Archivist, Jerk, Nanny]
Which flame-warrior am I? Diagnosing multiple
personality disorders across the Internet
[Which Flame
Warrior am I? - diagnosing multiple personality disorders across the
Internet ;-)]
Which Flame Warrior am
I? [Pithy Phrase and Therapist]
Profundus Maximus, Newbie, Eagle Scout, and
Howlers: the tribulations of the Hierophant
Re: The Hierophant [Profundus
Maximus and Howlers]
Fwd:
[NavyaShastra] Re: The Times of India
Ferrous Cranus, Grenade, Klaxon, Evil Clown
Propeller-Head, Target, Swarm, Peacemaker
GOD: the ultimate Flame-Warrior who wins (us
all over) without fighting a single battle?
"An
Interview with God" - whose Word (Logos) now works its natural wonders
through digital imagery!
[All Caps, Grammarian, and
Loopy]
Is a member of this virtual community
accountable for his behavior in another forum?
Is Notorious
Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?
Re: Is
Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?
Re: Is
Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?
Re:
Geopolitics and Sanskrit Phobia
PalAyadhvam,
palAyadhvam, re re duSkavi kunjarah
New Debating Tool - please
check out Jack Paulus website devoted to 'truth-mapping'
Re: Indian
ethics [vs normativitis: Is the Abhinava forum moderator a Netiquette Nazi? -
sv]
Re: Indian
ethics [vs normativitis: Is the Abhinava forum moderator a Netiquette Nazi? -
sv]
Issue-Based Information Systems & the Abhinavagupta project
Subject: [Abhinava msg #118 – order of thread reversed]
More on Issue-Based
Information Systems & the
From:
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 1:18 PM
To:
Cc:
Hi Jeff,
>
I had drafted a response to your various observations on the greater viability of face-to-face communications media, but did not get to mail it out to the taxonomy list before I quit InformIT. The gist was my own perception that perhaps the most effective communication may be nurtured rather in the space between the synchronous and the asynchronous. I see many advantages to email, particularly the delayed response time (for research, food for thought...). The ability to choose and shuffle one's interlocutors so that (potential) collaborators are brought in at the most opportune moment (even for them). Of course, such a leisurely pace is more feasible in humanities (or even scientific) research than within the (often unrealistic deadlines that define the) context of business projects, which seem to be your primary focus at the moment.
>
Let’s stay in touch!
Sunthar
[Rest of this thread at http://www.svabhinava.org/friends/JeffConklin/IBIS-VIMS-correspond.htm]
Subject:
Re: More on Issue-Based Information Systems & the
From:
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 11:51 AM
To:
Cc:
Hello Sunthar,
>
As for the
Yours, Jeff
Subject:
May I post your chapter on the Friends page of our web-site?
From:
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 3:23 PM
To:
Dear Jeff,
> >
I plan to add eventually an entire area on
Knowledge Management, especially as it relates to
I agree with you that e-mail in itself is an asynchronous tool; what I had in mind was the convergence of a variety of media, both synchronous and asynchronous, the resulting power of communication far exceeding any one of them taken separately.
Looking forward to hearing from you!
Sunthar
Subject:
Re: linear versus threaded discussion for
From:
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:48 AM
To:
At 11:29 PM 11/19/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear Jeff,
>
I'm reviewing Discus as a possible discussion software for our relocated site. However, it's based on a linear model and I recall your expressing a preference earlier for a threaded model. What is your take on the pros and cons at:
>
http://support.discusware.com/center/resources/essays/thread.html?
>
Thanks,
Sunthar
Hi Sunthar,
I'm afraid I'm not going to get a chance to look at Discus this month. I'd like to check it out ... if you can wait until mid January for my thoughts, then great!
Best
to you and yours,
Jeff
Subject:
Linear versus Threaded discussion - how to Dia-Gnose across knowledge communities
From:
Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002; 1:59 pm
Use many vehicles of communication to assemble a coalition
With the Chariot in this position, there is long term
potential to enlarge your scope of influence. As you expand the realm in which
you move, you will more freely share your ideas and ideals and meet like-minded
souls. Find the energy to travel, make connections and use technology to
network. Over time your enthusiasm for seeking new stimulation [...].
Don’t rush the process. Take time to savor each contact. Out of these you will
be able to weave a web of team mates. Together you are going to change your
world.”
Chariot at Outcome (malkhut)
position in Tree-of-Life Tarot spread, 29th January 2000.
Dear Jeff,
Actually, I wasn't suggesting that you review the
various features of the Discus egroup software but simply respond to their
argument for linear (as opposed to threaded hierarchic) postings. In any case,
once I got the hang of Yahoo!Groups and its immense powers of aggregation across
egroups, the issue of my taking on the administrative and technical burden for
these forums became moot. In addition to the advantages of ease of use, administrative tools, neatness and
efficiency, let me add a few observations after a month of working
with the (not-so-) 'linear' model:
Lazy use of the Reply function - actually if one simply
uses the Reply button to respond, Yahoo!Groups does keep track of the resulting
thread thus allowing readers to browse to the original post and/or to
subsequent comments. However, even cursory inspection will reveal that in most
forums, these 'replies' often go off at a tangent, start a new thread,
or are simply intended to reduce the number of keystrokes required to post
a message. Obviously, technology is only an enabling factor that cannot
substitute for cultivating the art of disciplined communication!
Subtopics impose straitjacket on multi-dimensional
discourse - Discus does allow users to create subtopics so that the initial
discussion may branch indefinitely with subgroups focusing only on those
'conversations' that interest them. The East-West dialogue, for which our
Abhinava forum is the pretext, covers such a variety of subjects that some
(like this one) are bound to be of only marginal interest to many (who have the
Delete button at their disposal). However, contributions that truly advance the
frontiers of knowledge would be expected to not only reveal and explore
fruitful connections between previously unrelated topics but also stimulate
controlled dialogue across separate virtual communities.
Multi-threading and evolving subject heads - personally, I
rarely 'reply' to a post. Instead, I craft a new message and append the
original email(s), editing them as appropriate. Instead of (still linear!)
threading, I embed hyperlinks to relevant postings (sometimes buried deep)
within other egroups that develop some of the critical premises in various
directions, leaving it to the reader to decide whether to follow up on
any of them. My 'response' may contain unobtrusive links to our
full-fledged articles or even be introduced by a long citation from one of
them, so that others may explore where I'm coming from. About halfway
through the 'tentacular' post, I nail down the subject head, and take pains to
ensure that the principal argument doesn't stray from its carefully chosen
wording (also means that it shows up in archival
searches by new members).
Cross-posting and web-thinking - my posts are often
conceived with more than one virtual community as the target. Where the
relevance to a particular egroup may not be obvious, I simply repost (sometimes
just the link) with an introductory note (modifying the subject heading where
appropriate) clarifying its significance to their concerns. This implies that
the key ideas have to be self-consciously stripped down to their bare
essentials to allow access from very different fields of interest. My
ideal reader inhabits a few egroups by choice but also 'visits' other
communities to enrich him/herself. The World Wide Web is compelling us to not
only go beyond (an often vacuous) 'self-expression' to communicate
our thoughts more rigorously, but to actually think-out-aloud in
public so that others are encouraged to think-along for themselves!
With best wishes for the New Year!
Sunthar
P.S. I hope that we'll be able to pursue these discussions on enabling technologies for virtual trans-communities at our new Dia-Gnosis egroup.
Mike Reed - A Netizen’s Guide to Flame-Warriors
Our attention was first drawn to Mike Reed’s
amusing gallery of illustrations and descriptions, through Arun Gupta’s posting
(6th June 2004) of the URL of the UK-based Politics Forum to the
OpenRISA (= Jnâna) list. This was in the midst of interpersonal frictions and
haggling over procedural issues that brought increasing pressure on the
moderator. After introducing (my take on
the role of) the Administrator, to dia-gnose the melt-down of that forum, I
began to draw upon the Netizen’s Guide to capture, highlight, record, and (re-)
interpret some of the recurring group dynamics on the Abhinavagupta and related
forums, thereby also using these, now frozen, exchanges to better understand
the psychosocial barriers to productive communication even outside of
cyberspace (i.e., in ‘real’ life).
Subject:
[Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #128]
From: [Arun Gupta]
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 2:42 PM
This has nothing to do with Religion in
Go to
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/index.php
and see how many types you can recognize.
Enjoy!
[Arun Gupta]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3837 – order of thread reversed]
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006; 4:29 pm
This digest is an analytical reflection on the unprecedented problems, best practices, and collective goals, of cyber-dialogue through drawing our attention to the most typical flame-warriors caught in the act of falling into their predefined stereotype. […] We owe a hearty thanks and deep appreciation to artist Mike Reed (we have his explicit blessings) […] I do sincerely hope that this illustrated “Politics of Acculturation” digest will bring his work the wide global and serious attention it richly deserves.
[http://www.svabhinava.org/Dia-Gnosis/DialoguesDiagnosis/FlameWarriors-frame.htm]
Friends,
I thought we might still celebrate this New Year's
Day (at least us folks in the 'New' World!) with some collective and mutual
entertainment (at our own expense?) by laughing at these (over-?) serious
'antics' (hâsyâbhâsa?) of fellow
'flame-warriors' on this world-wide cyber-stage...
Thanks again to Arun for sharing Mike Reed's URL with the
rest of us!
Enjoy!
Sunthar
PS: This svAbhinava digest is still 'under construction'
(hence the missing articulations...bandhu?)
PPS: Discussion on the Abhinava list remains suspended
till further notice.
The Administrator - Is the Abhinava forum a (procedural) ‘democracy’ or a ‘dictatorship’?
The role of the Administrator was introduced in the context of the premature breakdown and closure of the OpenRISA forum over issues of unbiased moderation. John Noyce, a member of the Religion in South Asia (RISA) forum composed primarily of professional (mostly Western) Indologists, took the initiative of launching OpenRISA on April 26, 2004, in response to (mostly negative) RISA discussions around the increasingly strident criticisms of official Indology by self-identified (mostly Indian) Hindus. After his proposal (18 April 2004) that Rajiv Malhotra, who was being branded on RISA as chief instigator, be invited to speak directly for himself, was declined on grounds of his lack of (official) academic credentials to speak on Indian religions, John took it upon himself to create in late April 2004 a new open platform on Yahoo! where (not just Western) Indologists and (not just Indian) Hindus could dialogue on an equal footing over (systemic mis-) representations of India and Hinduism in particular. The increasing number of messages not being approved resulted in growing protests as to the criteria for approval, a crisis in ‘moderation’ that was aggravated by the lack of clear-cut guidelines on posting, forum netiquette, and range of permissible topics. Despite suggestions for rotating the role of moderator through some sort of voting procedure were made (a bad idea, in my opinion), John eventually felt obliged to shut down ‘Open’ RISA because of attempts to undermine his authority and credibility by those on whose very behalf he felt he had launched this new discussion space. Though subsequently re-dubbed as Jnâna (‘knowledge’) to avoid any association wit, judgment upon, and competition with the original (closed?) RISA (whose archives were indeed subsequently closed to non-card-carrying Indologists because of increasing outside scrutiny of ethnocentric slurs), the forum has not seen any dialogue since December 2004 on any topic whatsoever. Included in this Act are posts from John, Rajiv, and Sunthar, addressing issues of moderating the list. OpenRISA’s closure served as a timely opportunity to clarify, in the following exchange, my own role as Administrator of the Abhinavagupta forum. [The exchanges below on ‘opening the archive’ will probably be moved into a separate digest]
Subject:
From: Rajiv Malhotra
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004; 5:59 am
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #1]
This list is a good idea but it must be moderated. All it takes is one bad apple (who could also operate under multiple identities) to ruin a serious discourse. Please consider this.
Regards and best wishes,
Rajiv
Subject:
Religious traditions, globalization and the Internet: problems in cross-cultural communication
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004; 8:46 am
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #2]
John,
I would strongly second Rajiv on the need (see forwarded post below) for a sensitive yet firm moderator (namely yourself)! I would also recommend that you flesh out the forum description so as to provide more focus and some illustrative issues to start the ball rolling.
As regards the Ganesha controversy, members may want to check out the diverse perspectives expressed at the Abhinavagupta forum and that have been indexed at (click Divinities, then Ganesha, on the left frame):
http://www.svabhinava.org/abhinava/ForumIndex/default.htm
>
Sunthar
-----Original Message-----
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 9:21 AM
Subject:
Religious traditions, globalization, and the Internet: problems in cross-cultural communication
You'll be able to develop you own insights into some of these communication hurdles and processes at work by following the relevant threads (on AIT/OIT, Indo-European linguistics, Ganesha controversy, etc.) on the IndianCivilizations, RISA-L, Akandabaratam, etc., lists...
Sunthar
-----Original
Message-----
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 12:25 PM
To: Dia-Gnosis ([email protected]); WTC-911 ([email protected])
Cc: Abhinavagupta ([email protected]);
Hindu-Buddhist
([email protected]);
MeccaBenares
([email protected]); Yoga
Psychology
([email protected]); [email protected];
[email protected];
Ontological Ethics
([email protected]);
Indo-Roma ([email protected])
Subject: Religious traditions, globalization, and the Internet: problems in cross-cultural communication
For religious identities to emerge, develop, consolidate and survive, communications with the outside world had to be carefully controlled, a condition that was assured by geographical isolation (Japan, South Asia), ethnic solidarity (China), in-group marriage (diaspora Jews), and/or valorizing of oral transmission as opposed to writing (Brahmanism). Conversely, the proselytizing traditions had to rely on direct human contact for conversion (Buddhist missionary preaching), suppress the dissemination of contrary worldviews upon conquest (Islamic iconoclasm, Catholic censorship), and/or rely on new technologies such as printing (Protestant Bible). The promiscuous human intercourse within the public arena and secular workplace of the globalizing society has also resulted in defense mechanisms such as mental compartmentalization whereby immigrants assume one mode of behavior and discourse with the outside world and remain attached to traditional values at home and within the confines of their religious community. The fundamental assumption has been that unmediated and unrestricted access to knowledge—even when indispensable for pursuing one's livelihood—is inherently dangerous to traditional identities that have been constructed around and nurtured by a selective reading of the world. Religious schisms, sectarian differentiation, and heretical developments may be usefully understood as attempts to resolve an overpowering and irreversible breach in pre-existing barriers to communication: Christian universalism from the confrontation of Jewish messianism with the multiplicity of pagan cults of sacrifice; Buddhist world-negation from the disenchantment of the mythico-ritual worldview when the pastoral Vedic tradition clashed headlong with the secularizing mercantile mentality of the city; Rabbinic Judaism as the diaspora response to the Roman destruction of the unifying role of the Temple and the loss of political autonomy. The sudden emergence of an instantaneous, seamless, and anarchic medium of global mass communication is hence both a dire challenge for the traditional religions and an unprecedented opportunity for the uncontrolled proliferation of hybrid identities.
The Internet is already being understood and exploited as a medium of 'glocalization' in that, even as mainstream globalization threatens the very existence of bounded communities and parochial identities, the communications network offers a universal reach to their otherwise marginalized perspectives and projects. The best, and perhaps not so paradoxical, illustration of such developments is the role of the World Wide Web in facilitating the anti-globalization movement to coordinate efforts to defend and promote a worldwide coalition of local interests. Glocalization, however, is redefining the very notion of 'locality' by de-territorializing the context within which learning, exchanges, personal bonding, and other constitutive elements of identity-formation are now operating. The result is an increasing hybridization of not only cultural and historical consciousness, but also of various traditional and postmodern values, as reflected in the fluid, shifting and evolving participation by individuals in multiple Web forums devoted to different issues. The flourishing religious syncretism once so well exemplified by unreflective modes of life among various communities confined by space and time (particularly within South Asian culture) is now making an even more powerful and irreversible comeback in cyberspace, this time on the self-conscious plane of representations. Though Web sites devoted to aggressive partisan agendas mobilize their dispersed adherents more economically and effectively, they thereby expose their tacit assumptions, peculiar logic and inner contradictions to the 'outside' scrutiny of non-adherents more than ever before. Moreover, attempts to proselytize on behalf of these causes or perspectives through open online forums invariably fail due to lack of mediation between multiple and opposed viewpoints. This is true even of academic discussion lists run by professional 'knowledge-workers'—even those of institutionalized and heavily invested disciplines like Orientalism—that are devoted to the ''scientific' analysis of religious traditions. Because their interpretations and even the often tacit assumptions are unacceptable to those who subscribe to the underlying tenets of the traditions under study—i.e., to the 'objects' of their discussion—exchanges are often reduced to 'politically correct' requests for and communication of bibliographic and other resources for research. The successful forums are precisely those that encourage—through the sensitive yet firm mediation of a skilled moderator—the expression of diverse perspectives within the concerned tradition in such a way as to facilitate engagement with those who do not share its presuppositions but possess vital specialist information, useful analytical methods and broad comparative perspectives. What we are witnessing is a degree of reflexivity being brought to bear upon the very processes of debate, dialogue, and consensus that has never been possible in previous mediums. As a decentralized and transparent communication network, the Internet is inevitably transforming the nature and future of religious projects, freeing their respective ideas-values-intentions from the shells of myth, ritual, dogma and institutional control that have till now served as their indispensable supports. The techno-social anarchism of this 'knowledge-environment' offers a fertile common ground for the antinomian impulses hidden within these traditions to engage each other openly and eventually redefine the project of modernity itself.
Audience participation: What are the differences, in your personal experience, between communicating by email and face-to-face? How would you assess your extended monitoring of an intra- and an inter-religious online forum? Did your attempt to discuss a controversial issue, to which you had something special to contribute, result in a satisfying experience to both your interlocutors and yourself? Did you get to know anyone whom you are likely to exchange serious emails with in future? [Specific tasks will be assigned to each participant early in the course]
Recapitulation of topics covered (to include examples and case-studies):
Internet governance not democratic, authoritarian nor
based on written laws, but consensual: role of freedom and censorship in this
former
Drivers: commerce, email, technology, knowledge dissemination, administration, news, virtual community, pleasure, creative expression, grassroots activism
Semantic Web as remedy for glut of unreliable unstructured information, hate speech, spam and disinformation; Topic Maps and knowledge management
Knowledge: free, universal, immediate and simultaneous access to specialist information; Google as personalized window to networked collective memory
Collaboration: pooling of intelligence, skills and experience from diverse backgrounds to solve common problems (Linux alternative to Microsoft Windows)
Activism: Howard Dean presidential campaign through MoveOn.org; online petitions to ban offensive books, subversion of repressive authoritarian regimes
Transgression: paralyzing virus attacks, invasion of privacy, identity theft, thriving commerce in pornography makes policing of moral boundaries impractical
Interactivity: tentative open-ended collaborative thinking with immediate feedback reintroduces virtues of oral communication within written medium
Democracy: inroads by laymen into traditional academic enclaves, scrutiny of behind-the-scenes institutional politics, challenge thereby to dominant paradigms
Natural hierarchies: (re-)established in unpredictable course of live multi-sided discussion where all can see who knows, understands, shares more than others
Collective self-censorship: public access to growing electronic archives eventually reveals whether one is ignorant, inconsistent, biased, duplicitous, self-serving
Virtual community: around crisscrossing common interests, exchanges result in personal bonding across ethnic, national, ideological boundaries (marginal Roma)
Interreligious dialogue: 'human sciences' provide neutral common ground while being obliged to take transcendental claims of traditional participants seriously
Moderator: set ground rules, provide focus, prevent flaming, facilitate productive dialogue; balance between free exchange and censorship of useless digression
Sensibility: exposure to infinite shades of opinion and development of dialogic skills in cyberspace transforms receptivity towards others in real-life environment
Sunthar V.,
"The glocalizing Internet:
Friends,
The above is extracted from module III of a 4-module course I'm preparing for managerial executives on "Religious traditions, globalization and the Internet; problems in cross-cultural communication." The gist is that religious traditions and globalization that have mostly been analyzed in terms of institutions, practices, economics, technology, etc., may be better understood when these are integrated into a communications model.
I would appreciate constructive feedback on the core argument, choice of topics, factors that may have been overlooked, etc.
Thanks in advance,
Sunthar
P.S. My main reason for sharing this copyrighted (March 2004) material is that it is perhaps at the heart of what is happening on these lists...
Subject:
From: [John Noyce]
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004; 7:43 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #3]
Hi all,
I agree with Rajiv and Sunthar, and have altered the settings.
For the time being I'll wear the Moderator's hat, and we'll see how things go.
I also ask that everyone participating in discussions should identify themselves in their first posting.
John Noyce
Independent scholar,
(and postgraduate research student, Centre for the Study
of Religion and Theology,
Subject:
From: Rajiv Malhotra
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004; 8:49 am
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #7]
We all want this to succeed. So one must study how
other models failed in order
to prevent the same mistakes. We already opened membership to
non-academicians, resolving
one cause of failure. The moderator will make sure of preventing abuses that are
another common cause of failure. But there are other potential problems worth
bearing in mind.
If people start to get dozens of emails daily,
they will leave or turn to
"no-email" mode and become nominal members at best. So how
about a quota of N posts
per week for any given member—forces each person to be thoughtful and not turn this
into a hyperactive chat.
Also, let’s discuss what kind of content is
intended here. Examples:
Do we delve into the "categories" and
"definitions" being used in the religious studies field - a major issue that I would
like to see discussed?
Do we discuss the "politics of knowledge construction
and distribution" -
also of interest to me, because I feel that postcolonial scholars
criticize the dead
Do we give answers to questions raised on risa-l where the
unwashed amongst us
are prevented: for instance, someone asked for a book on some topic, and the only ones recommended
are not representative of the field today or are about patronizing each other. (Example: Someone wanted a
reference on Indian theories
of time, and the replies failed to mention a recent book that I feel is the most
comprehensive and provocative on this, i.e. the one by C.K. Raju.)
I suggest before posting specific content, let us first
discuss meta-level issues, such as those above.
Regards,
Rajiv
Subject:
From: Rajiv Malhotra
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:43 am
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #12]
John,
How about specifying a monthly theme to give some contour? My suggestion is that we start with "challenging definitions and categories" as a theme. In particular, I wish the scholars would discuss definitions of various terms that are being used inconsistently today. This list includes the following:
Religious Fundamentalism: Is this same as exclusivism, or literal historical interpretation of canons, or what?
Religious Tolerance: Must not be confused with mutual respect. (Muslim theologians told me they can tolerate Hinduism, but are prevented from giving it legitimacy by substituting mutual respect in lieu of tolerance - Needs clarification.)
Secularism: Differentiate from pluralism. Is secularism a pseudo-Christian category as believed by many? What would be equivalent Hindu, Muslim, etc ideas?
Nationalism: Is every political leader of
Religious Nationalism: When does the dominant religion's importance cross the threshold into religious nationalism? Is Bush a Christian Nationalist - we don't have our scholars describe him as such, so what is the objective criteria?
Communalism: Are only majority religions capable of communalism? Can there be (and is there) also minority communalism? What are the objective criteria?
Human Rights: Do cultures also have rights to prevent their eradication, such as religions, languages, etc.? Or do only individuals have rights? If the latter, then it's okay if a culture gets eradicated while individuals eat McDonalds, wear Nike, and consume Pepsi, because biologically they are better off.
Religious Freedom: By what criteria is this to be defined? Is intrusive marketing a violation of the target's freedom, especially if there is an imbalance of power? Is the eradication of native culture a breach of their human rights and hence against freedom?
Describing a faith: If so-called "objective" text analysis contradicts the practitioner's idea of the faith (say in the case of Ganesha's symbolic interpretation) does the text interpretation supersede? Is that an over-privileging of text because of Abrahamic religions' being canonized and history-centric? In other words, what's the importance to be given to non-textual practices and interpretations - dance, rituals, music, yogic experiences, bhakti, etc. that are not necessarily rooted in hermeneutics?
I have problems with many specific terms being (mis)translated into Judeo-Christian "best fit" substitutes. Examples: Atman as soul; Ishvara or Brahman as God; murti as idol; shruti as revealed text; dharma as Law; smriti as Law; etc.
The problem is that this could keep us going for quite some time. The result may well be very useful no doubt, but there must be some discipline to keep it from getting too broad and out of control.
Members should propose suggestions.
Regards,
Rajiv
Subject:
From: John Noyce
Date: Sun May 2, 2004; 5:13 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #24]
Greetings all
It is customary on most email lists for participants to identify themselves in their postings. Please do so on OpenRISA.
As of now, anonymous messages will be returned to sender for identification details to be added.
John Noyce
OpenRisa Moderator
Subject:
From: Christian Wedemeyer
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004; 2:14 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #102]
Dear openrisa-friends,
There has been some discussion of this elsewhere of late, and I had wondered about it before myself, so I wonder if I may be excused for bringing up this issue on the list…but why are the openrisa archives closed to non-members?
The archives of both the much-maligned INDOLOGY and RISA-L are open for all to read, as are the archives of (the somewhat-less-but-occasionally-maligned) Yahoo!INDOLOGY.
I would suggest that having an open archive would be a generous and forthright thing for those of us who are members in good standing of openrisa to support. If there are some who object, perhaps the moderator could open a "poll" (one of the Yahoo!groups functions) to gauge the views of the membership.
All the best,
Christian
Subject:
From: John Noyce
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 5:33 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #103]
Yes, there has indeed been discussion of this elsewhere, in at least two places in fact, and I've had one private email also.
I'm against public availability of the openrisa messages simply because we then have the same problem that Risa-l is facing. Namely someone being asked to justify something they wrote six months, two years, five years ago. Now you may say, that's good. And indeed it may well be. However it would seem to me to be obvious that the paucity of discussion on risa-l in recent times has much to do with risa members' heightened awareness of the public nature of their discussions and the consequences that follow from that. Would the same logic apply to the hardy souls that inhabit openrisa?
BTW, public availability of yahoogroup archives means also that Google gets access to the messages too so they are then permanently in the Google cache. So are you all prepared for public access via Google to a message outside of its thread and therefore its context?
I'd appreciate some discussion on this please.
John Noyce
openrisa Moderator
Subject:
From: John Noyce
Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004; 9:15 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #169]
Hi all
Can everyone please remember the focus of this
list, namely the academic
study of Religions in
Discussions of dharma, secularism, and other
issues, belong else. They can occur
here but only within the specific context of this list.
John Noyce
openRISA Moderator
Subject:
From: Rajiv Malhotra
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004; 7:16 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open
Risa) msg #106]
I support John Noyce’s policy not to open the
archive to non-members.
While risa-l membership is closed to the outcaste
like many of us, everyone can join openrisa as a member. Hence, everyone has
access to the openrisa archive by simply becoming a member. The same is not true
of risa-l, hence it needs to make its archive available to non-members who have
been declared shudras by the western classification of who is a scholar and who
is not. If and when risa-l throws its membership open, it will no longer need
to make a distinction about access to its archive.
Regards,
Rajiv
Subject:
From: Arun Gupta
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004; 7:29 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #107]
--- In [email protected], [John Noyce] wrote:
Yes, there has indeed been discussion of this elsewhere, in at least two places in fact, and I've had one private email also. I'm against public availability of the openrisa messages simply because we then have the same problem that Risa-l is facing. Namely someone being asked to justify something they wrote six months, two years, five years ago. Now you may say, that's good. And indeed it may well be. However it would seem to me to be obvious that the paucity of discussion on risa-l in recent times has much to do with risa members' heightened awareness of the public nature of their discussions and the consequences that follow from that. Would the same logic apply to the hardy souls that inhabit openrisa?
This is an issue only if one would want to say nasty things in private that one would not like to say in public.
-Arun
Subject:
From: Anil Bharathi Joshi
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 10:06 am
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #111]
My name is Anil Joshi. My area of research is High speed high capacity algorithms for solving systems of large sparse linear equations. I am interested in Hindu religion as I have been raised in a hindu brahmin family and have heard/read stories from Hindu/Indian epics and Puranas.
Here is a suggestion for those who are asking to open OpenRISA.
Why don't you start an Open-Open-RISA as opposed to Closed-open-RISA (RISA-L), Open-closed-RISA(openrisa), and several Closed-closed-RISAs? That's the beauty of Internet. It is an open architecture and you can plug-in anything you want into to it. Taking Rajiv Malhotra's anology further, you can create your own Jati (Group) on the open platform of Internet.
Subject:
From: Rajiv Malhotra
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 11:05 am
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #114]
One should learn from role models of success and not failure. Clearly, openrisa is a successful model. Clearly, closed-risa is a dismal failure, as it refused to change to the new imperative of equality between peoples of different cultures. Its tradition of talking down at the very culture it claims to study and abusing those who seek parity of dialog status with it is by now notorious.
So closed-risa is the one that should learn and emulate openrisa - why should openrisa copy the failed model?
Otherwise, closed-risa will have to close down.
Regards,
Rajiv
Subject:
From: Christian Wedemeyer
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 12:23 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #115]
--- In [email protected], [Vishal Agarwal] wrote:
I would like to add
that people who advocate opening of archives themselves practice censorship.
For instance, see the list 'indology' yahoogroup moderated by bushisadork. .
.at least 6 Indians have complained in the last month (on IndianCivilization
list) that their messages are axed without any reason by the moderator of that
list. . . . just like many African Americans in the
I reply:
I had hoped this list would restrict itself to its
mandate, i.e. the "discussion of matters pertaining to the academic study
of Religions in
Even though this issue has long since been aired on the IC list and passed beyond by everyone else involved, the unflappable Vishal-ji has taken it upon himself (in the context of "critiquing" my message by reference to myself as messenger) to resurrect his claim that my moderation of Yahoo!INDOLOGY is motivated, not by principle, but by ethnic or religious bias.
This discussion has no place on this list: I would suggest that the moderator of this list should have been more proactive in encouraging Vishal-ji to be more civil.
However, since his message has been approved, and I have now been formally accused on this list by name (or rather Yahoo!ID) of being a bigot, I would just like to draw attention to the following document (freely available to both members and non-members):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/files/Posting%20guidelines.rtf
This outlines in detail the principles for moderation, violation of which resulted in Vishal's postings being rejected. Needless to say, they were not "axed without any reason" and certainly not for the reason he intimates (bias against Indians).
Those of you whose prurient interests would like more on this story, may check he archives of IndianCivilization Yahoo!group, under the thread "Why have I been banned," where I explain why poor Vishal-ji has been banned from that group and Vishal airs his side of the story.
I regret that this subject was raised on this list. I hope in the future this won't happen, and that all discussion will be constructive and civil.
It does raise a further question about the openness of this list (in terms of moderator control), as the *entire* content of Vishal's message is devoted to personal attacks and contains no constructive contribution to discussion. The next paragraph refers aggressively by name to Rupa Viswanath, intimating she is a "terrorist"; the next refers obliquely to the (unnamed) founders of scholarly services.
Did the moderator not read this message? Or does
he believe that this is a constructive and helpful contribution to
"discussion of matters pertaining to the academic study of Religions in
All the best,
Christian K. Wedemeyer
Subject:
From: John Noyce
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 6:52 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #118]
Yes, I did read the offending message and I wasn’t personally happy with it. However I let it through because
Shri Wedemeyer would be able to give us the background (and he now has); and
It is an example of the anger building within the Hindu
diaspora of
That said, we can now return to the more pleasant modes of dialogue which characterized earlier openrisa postings.
And let no one be under any illusions, this moderator does return messages for revision and will continue to do so.
BTW, everyone happy with the group name?
[John Noyce]
Subject:
Open archives? (Response to Malhotra's argument)
From: Christian Wedemeyer
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 12:34 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #116]
Since Rajiv has weighed in again on this issue, I assume I may also:
> --- In [email protected], Rajiv Malhotra wrote:
While risa-l membership is closed to the outcaste like many of us, everyone can join openrisa as a member. Hence, everyone has access to the openrisa archive by simply becoming a member. The same is not true of risa-l, hence it needs to make its archive available to non-members who have been declared shudras by the western classification of who is a scholar and who is not. If and when risa-l throws its membership open, it will no longer need to make a distinction about access to its archive.
I reply:
I suppose it is my fault for framing the discussion before in terms of what other lists do. Sorry for that…
Putting that aside: is it too much to suggest that, even though this list was actually created and named in relationship to the existence (and perceived limitations) of RISA-L, it might be more constructive to discuss the issue of open archives independently of that history and anyone's (admittedly regrettable) feelings of shudra-hood?
On a perfectly practical note, even though one can join freely, how is one to decide if one should join, unless one can see the level of discussion? For all a prospective member knows, this list could be a high-volume, low-quality rant list. How are they to know? If they can browse the archives, on the other hand, they can make an informed decision about whether or not to join. Don't we want members who are really interested and committed to the list, not the merely curious?!
Furthermore--even though it might provide a frisson of some sort to make those "evil RISA-L types" (of which, I must admit, I am one) join in order to read what we write here--I would suggest that, if what we write is actually worth reading such that it may enlighten those "Others" to views they otherwise would not confront, shouldn't we (as those enlightened to the "Hindu" virtue of daana--which is ideally a-nimitta, i.e. not self-interested) offer our thoughts generously and sensitively to the world, without expecting recompense in membership numbers or frissons? To do otherwise, I would suggest, is to lower ourselves to "their" (putative) level…
It would be nice if some of the other 140-odd members weighed in on this, though again I think it would be most efficient in the end to take a Yahoo! vote on the issue, after members have been given the opportunity to air a range of helpful and constructive arguments pro and con on the issue.
All the best,
Christian Wedemeyer
Subject:
Re: Open archives? (Response to Malhotra's argument)
From: Rajiv Malhotra
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004; 10:01 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open
Risa) msg #119]
From: Chr. Wedemeyer:
1) On a perfectly practical note, even though one can join
freely, how is one to decide if one should join, unless one can see the level
of discussion?
RESPONSE: The effort to join is just a few clicks,
so its a practical non-issue. The person interested makes an explicit
acknowledgment of a break away from closed-risa’s exclusivity claims, i.e.
acknowledges that there are “others” out there with agency to speak.
2) Shouldn’t we (as those enlightened to the
"Hindu" virtue of daana--which is ideally a-nimitta, i.e. not
self-interested) offer our thoughts generously and sensitively to the world,
without expecting recompense in membership numbers or frissons? To do
otherwise, I would suggest, is to lower ourselves to "their"
(putative) level. . .
RESPONSE:
This has been used as a ploy to exploit Hindus for
too long – “you are the lofty vedantin, so give me your lands and wealth, as
its all mithya and you don’t want to be burdened with it.” This mentality was
glorified by the colonizers, and kshatriya leadership was replaced by morons
who could not understand what was in their own best interest.
Imagine preaching to
Imagine telling corporate
Imagine telling the soldiers fighting in Kargil,
“There is no need to fight because there is no other and all paths lead to
truth in the end.”
May I suggest that this Moronization of Indians
was the colonialist strategy of breeding of a certain kind of Hindu ethos,
which contradicted the earlier ethos of competitiveness of Indians. How else
could Indians have been (along with Chinese) in control over most world trade
prior to the 18th century, most of the world’s textile and other industries?
The idea that a good Indian is a poor, defeated,
dependent pet who must be “kept” by his Western “keepers” must be challenged in
the global competitive system.
Bottom line: Lets negotiate what you have to offer
before you assume my daana as an unconditional given. Daana is not to be
exploited a system of taking us for a ride. We are not suffering from an
inferiority complex that requires us to get a certificate of being “good
people” from anyone.
So let’s make decisions that are in the best
interest of openrisa, and let’s individually continue our personal daana
separately. Let’s not forget our collective dharma for the sake of openrisa.
Regards,
Rajiv
Subject:
From: John Noyce
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004; 4:42 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #170]
Yesterday I posted what I felt was a reasonable request asking everyone to try to stick to core topics.
Today I have 11 pending messages, none of which seem to me to be on core topics.
More seriously I observe from the membership logs that the academics are leaving.
I set this group up as a forum for genuine dialogue between the RISA academics and (for want of a better word) the activists.
In recent days it has become clear that the activists do not want genuine dialogue, merely a platform for their own views.
Convince me I'm wrong guys, otherwise OpenRISA closes...
John Noyce
Subject:
From: John Noyce
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004; 4:54 pm
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #171]
I see that Rajiv Malhotra is now circulating an example of what he regards as 'censorship' on this list. No attempt to enter dialogue of course...
openRISA is now closed.
John Noyce
List owner
Subject:
From: John Noyce
Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:45 am
To: [Jnana (= Open Risa) msg #174]
You are receiving this message as a subscriber to opeRISA.
This group has now been renamed 'Jnana' and has a specific focus as outlined on the group front page.
Please read before posting.
John Noyce
opeRISA/Jnana Moderator
Subject: [Abhinava msg #2007 – order of thread reversed]
From:
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004; 8:23 PM
Hi all,
Some comments from the list moderator in the light of recent postings:
1. Would people please be more reflective and less reactive in their postings.
2. Please consolidate your multiple views on the same subject into one message rather than sending several in rapid succession.
3. Please avoid use of futuristic hypothetical examples.
4. Please note that, however righteous you may feel your anger to be at the usage of obscene imagery by an academic writer, this does not legitimate YOUR use of obscene language on this list which others will find offensive.
Regards
John Noyce
Jnana (moderator)
Subject:
Moderating a discussion group - democracy, kin(g)ship, and regicide on the Internet :-)
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004; 4:08 pm
I have never understood why
Moreover, attempts to proselytize on behalf of these causes or
perspectives through open online forums invariably fail due to lack of
mediation between multiple and opposed viewpoints. This is true even of
academic discussion lists run by professional ‘knowledge-workers’—even those of
institutionalized and heavily invested disciplines like Orientalism—that are
devoted to the ‘’scientific’ analysis of religious traditions. Because their
interpretations and even the often tacit assumptions are unacceptable to those
who subscribe to the underlying tenets of the traditions under study -
i.e., to the ‘objects’ of their discussion - exchanges are often reduced
to ‘politically correct’ requests for and communication of bibliographic and
other resources for research. The successful forums are precisely those that
encourage - through the sensitive yet firm mediation of a skilled moderator -
the expression of diverse perspectives within the concerned tradition in such a
way as to facilitate engagement with those who do not share its presuppositions
but possess vital specialist information, useful analytical methods, and broad
comparative perspectives. What we are witnessing is a degree of reflexivity
being brought to bear upon the very processes of debate, dialogue, and
consensus that has never been possible in previous mediums.
Religious traditions, globalization, and the
Internet: problems in cross-cultural communication
Sunthar V., Abhinava msg #1755 (6
April 2004) = Open RISA msg #2
(27 April 2004)
When I first joined the RISA-L list some years ago, it was an
interesting place to be, with some robust discussions, which were only
moderated when absolutely necessary. Now self-censorship seems to be the norm
with an increasing number of topics being ruled out of order by the current
moderator and the management committee (no doubt for very good reasons). It
seems to me that the academic interchange of information works well currently
on RISA-L, but that there needs to be another forum, alongside, for the more
contentious issues. And this new forum needs to include those who do not
qualify for membership of RISA-L. So here's a suggestion: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openrisa
Please note: this new forum is intended to complement RISA-L, nothing
else.
John, I would strongly second Rajiv on the need (see forwarded post
below) for a sensitive yet firm moderator (namely yourself)! I would also
recommend that you flesh out the forum description so as to provide more focus
and some illustrative issues to start the ball rolling.
Sunthar V., Open RISA msg #2 =
Abhinava msg
#1814 (27 April 2004)
I see that
It is with sadness that I key-in this note.
Founded on April 26, 2004.
Closed on June 15, 2004.
Membership: 162
Last message: “I see that
It is sad, indeed, that
The blame-game can continue; after all, Hindu is a word of abuse these
days, so says, Tavleen Singh.
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=48854
Even those who want to promote Hindu dharma think they are helping by abusing
(or, is it friendly criticism)? Who knows?
S. Kalyanaraman, “Open RISA now closed” (Tue., 15
June 2004),
Admin is the janitor, the cop, the mayor,
the judge and sometimes even the forum doctor who tends to Warriors injured in
battle - in other words, Nanny
on steroids. Because he runs the forum and sets the rules Admin has the power
to pull the plug on any Warrior who gets a little too frisky. Sometimes his
efforts are appreciated, but like any authority figure he is also resented -
especially by Jerk,
Evil
Clown, L'Enfant
Provocateur, Ego,
Rebel Without
a Clue, Yuk Yuk,
Troller,
and other Warriors who would like to turn the forum into their personal
playground. Most Admins are generally fair and even handed, but the adage that
absolute power corrupts absolutely is as true on the Internet as it is anywhere
else, and it is a rare Admin who can resist bringing the hammer down if
seriously pressed by a determined foe. Sycophant
and other suckups will also attach themselves to a strong Admin to form a
defensive perimeter around him, and more often than not Admin's enemies will be
driven off without him ever having to brandish his axe. CAUTION: Admin is the most powerful of all Warriors and drawing him
into direct battle invites almost certain defeat. Rebel
Leader does pose a limited threat to Admin's power by fomenting
a revolt and causing forum members to jump ship.
The
Administrator (= Moderator), Flame
Warriors
An Internet forum, as I have already clarified
many times before, is not a 'democratic' community but one that has been
launched by a specific individual (even if corporate) entity, who has to
invest demanding resources in time, attention, thought, and energy to ensure
its success. Hence also the need for very specific rules as to what is
permissible by way of scope, content, tone, etc., the application of which will
always retain an element of subjectivity. It may be expected that the
rules will also gradually evolve along with the nature and composition of the
group:
The forum description must be detailed enough so
that (not just new) members are not kept guessing as to what posts are
permissible and how they could be framed. For the same reason, declined posts
ought to be explicitly rejected with a note clarifying what exactly was the
nature of the offence and, if possible, how it may be rectified to ensure
approval when reposted. Otherwise, the slighted may lose interest.
Like the Hindu king, the moderator embodies the unity and
interests of the whole virtual community. To attack him/her personally
and/or to foment revolt should, it seems to me, be a matter of last resort, for
the consequences of dissolution affect all the members who have voluntarily
subscribed to his/her jurisdiction. Even if they agree with the dissent, the
likelihood is that such subversion will come back to haunt the Rebel.
Discussion lists that do not systematically archive,
consolidate and make readily accessible their past gains are not
likely to progress in a manner commensurate with the required investment in
time and attention of its members. Otherwise, increase in membership, presumably
the barometer of a healthy public-oriented forum, is likely to prove suicidal
because new subscribers feel exempted from imbibing the collective mind.
Ultimately, it is an extremely diverse (and even
internally conflicted...) virtual community that is going to evaluate the
performance of the Moderator in terms of fairness, constructiveness, etc. You
cannot overthrow a Tyrant on the Internet but you can always abandon his
kingdom at a moment's notice and allow him the solipsistic omnipotence of self-rule!
I believe it is in everyone's interest that we do not come to this....
With best wishes to all!
Sunthar
P.S. How is it that those who are most chagrined at the
breakdown of an incipient virtual community are often the very (vociferous!)
ones who have contributing the most to the subversion of these tenuous bonds -
both intellectual and personal - before they can even grow roots?
[Rest of this thread at
[Godzilla, Xenophobe, Duelists, Archivist, Jerk, Nanny]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3001
– order of thread reversed]
From: David
Russell Watson
Sent: Wednesday,
February 16, 2005 7:35 AM
With what end in mind, Sunthar, did you cross post this message to the IndianCivilization list?
David
--- In [email protected], Sunthar
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/2935
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3001]
[Godzilla, Xenophobe, Duelists, Archivist, Jerk, Nanny]
From: Sunthar
Visuvalingam
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:35
AM
It was a peaceful and productive forum; lively, congenial and a
bounteous source of useful information. Then one day, completely without
warning, Godzilla arose from the depths and blew his scalding breath on
everything in his path. A phalanx of Warriors mobilized to attack the monster,
only to be crushed like so many toy tanks under Godzilla's mighty feet.
Godzilla soon reduced the forum to searing and consuming flames. Just as
abruptly, he rumbled back beneath the waves, leaving all to tremble in fear of
his return. Net life would never be the same. Sadly, many netizens who survive
a Godzilla attack will become Xenophobes.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_66.php
Xenophobe is usually a long-term discussion forum participant and he
thinks of the forum as his private compound. Xenophobe regards newbies to his
forum as mentally deficient and perhaps even having criminal tendencies, and
they are invariably approached with suspicion and condescension. If a Newbie
has the temerity to make critical observations about the forum's social
dynamics, or questions prevailing opinion, Xenophobe will attempt to silence or
drive out the newcomer.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_47.php
In a perpetual closed-loop feud, the Duelists generally don't menace
anyone but each other, unless, of course, another Warrior foolishly attempts to
mediate. Like the Hatfields and McCoys, they probably don't even remember the
source of their mutual animus, nonetheless they enthusiastically loathe one
another and seize every opportunity to exchange vitriol. When the other
Warriors eventually weary of their endless kvetching the Duelists will be
shouted down or Nanny will ban them. Even after getting the heave-ho from one
forum, however, it is not unusual for them to find each other in another
discussion group and the fighting will begin anew. Hate is sometimes as
mysterious as love...
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_69.php
Archivist saves and squirrels away each and every discussion forum
message. Do you remember having a bad day back in 1996 when in one of your
messages you may have said a few things that were...well, perhaps a
little...hasty? Don't worry, Archivist still has it and will post it to the
forum if you begin to get the upper hand in battle. Archivist can be a very
effective and fearsome Warrior.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_40.php
Jerk is sarcastic, mean, unforgiving and never misses an opportunity to
make a cutting remark. Jerk's repulsive personality quickly alienates other
Warriors, and after some initial skirmishing he is usually ostracized. Still,
Jerk is very happy to participate in electronic forums because in cyberspace he
is free to be himself...without the risk of getting a real-time punch in the
mouth.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_33.php
Nanny tirelessly monitors forum discussions and makes it his mission to
see to it that everyone behaves. While he is quick to admonish for off-topic
messages and petty squabbling, he is generally rather slow to anger. Nanny
rarely wades into pitched battles, rather he simply pulls the plug on
combatants. Often Nanny becomes the unwitting ally to the intrigues of Rat and
Crybaby.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_11.php
You are certainly not the first 'immigrant' and
probably not the last, David, from the (xenophobe?) '
In short, even Godzillas thrown out of other 'xenophobic' forums are welcome here, provided they've learnt how to keep themselves on a leash :-)
Sunthar
P.S. You might gradually discover the benefits of cross-posting (see
Guidelines), if you stick around long enough...
[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (20 June 04),
“Moderating a discussion group - democracy, kin(g)ship and regicide on the Internet :-)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/messages/2007]
Which flame-warrior am I? Diagnosing multiple personality disorders across the Internet
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3002
– order of thread reversed]
[Which Flame Warrior am I? - diagnosing multiple personality disorders across the Internet ;-)]
From: Radhakrishna
Warrier
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 5:33 PM
That was fantastic Sunthar.
Come to think of it, isn't there in me a little of the Godzilla, the Xenophobe, the Duelist, the Archivist, the Jerk, and perhaps the Nanny? I am all of these rolled into one, I feel sometimes. But as the old Hindi song goes:
Na mein bhagwaan hoon, na mein shaitaan hoon ..
thoda sa nek hoon, thoda be-imaan hoon..
duniya jo chaahe samjhe,
main to insaan (God forbid, not insane) hoon :-).
Thanks and regards,
P.S. The translation of the song is left to the
netizens of this list who are experts in Hindi/Urdu.
[Response to Sunthar's post (3 March 05),
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3001]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3002]
Which Flame Warrior am I? [Pithy Phrase and Therapist]
From: Sunthar
Visuvalingam
“I'm not God, nor am I Satan...
rather well-intentioned and just a little bit dishonest...
Let the world believe whatever it wants,
I am but a [sane? - SV] human being :-)”
Pithy Phrase is a walking compendium of famous quotations and wise
adages [even
in Hindi! - SV]. Of course, he will never add anything original to
the discussion, but because most discussion forums communicate through e mail
he can take his time to thumb through books of quotes and find les mots justes for every situation. Er...didn't Winston Churchill
say, “It's a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.”?
Digital forums are a gift to the slow witted (I said that).
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_52.php
Hello Radha,
You're welcome and you certainly got the point that my own 'flame' was not really directed at anyone in particular, because we all change our 'warrior' personas from day to day (not to mention from forum to forum...depending what and just how much we've got invested...)!
Regards,
Sunthar
Therapist can be a highly annoying and therefore very effective Warrior.
Instead of making a frontal attack, Therapist attempts to shift the focus of
the conflict to the combatants' psychological motivations and problems. He will
freely speculate about other Warriors' insecurities, personalities, and
relationships, but he will almost never directly engage the subject of the
dispute. CAUTION: Evil Clown, Imposter, and Troller often masquerade as
Therapist.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_24.php
Profundus
Maximus, Newbie, Eagle Scout, and Howlers: the tribulations of the Hierophant
As the
cyber-equivalent of Hyde Park, the Internet allows every would-be messiah and
crackpot to preach his gospel and the lost flocks gather from across whole
world (-wide-web) around the new watering-hole not so much for the profound
insights and the incentive to think for oneself but because their deep-rooted
prejudices and sense of superiority receive a low-cost ‘scientific’ or religious
veneer from the shepherd. There are even willing ‘disciples’ […] On the basis
of the family resemblances between Sanskrit Indo-Aryan languages
Subject: [Abhinava msg #2945]
From: S. Sathia
Sent: Wednesday,
February 16, 2005 6:02 AM
Dear Friends,
I am a newcomer to the
The picture of Hierophant at the website of
This is what I propose:
>
[Sathia's full post is at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/2945]
>
I am happy to be in Tiruppati.
Regards,
Sathia
[Prompted by David's post (Oct 29, 2004),
“[Re: Origin of Sanskrit] The blind leading the
blind, the loud preaching to the deaf, 'debates' in real-time from a mad-house?”
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/2935]
“Eagle Scout is a positive, constructive Warrior who endeavors to submit
original articles which contain useful content and relevant information with
supporting citations and links, thus initiating meaningful discussion threads.
Eagle Scout regards the Internet as an uplifting, egalitarian, worldwide arena
for the exchange of ideas among intelligent, thinking individuals. He does not
openly attack, but will (ever tactfully) chastise disruptive comments,
gratuitous insults, and cretinous insipidity. He is always kind and helpful to
Newbie, and will shrug off even the most egregious insults. Eagle Scout is
loathed with a poisonous intensity by Evil Clown, Jerk, L'Enfant Provocateur
and Ego. CAUTION: Sometimes Imposter, Evil Clown or Troller will masquerade as
Eagle Scout. There have also been reports of Eagle Scout becoming Jekyll and
Hyde.”
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_63.php
Dear Sathia,
I've never come across any Indian having 'Tiruppati' as his personal name, other than as a qualifying place name, e.g., Palghat Mani Iyer, Lalgudi Jayaraman, Madurai Somasundaram, Umayalpuram Shivaraman, OothukaaDu VenkaTa Subbaiyar (to draw my examples only from illustrious Carnatic musicians).
Perhaps you are thinking rather (under the hypnotic spell of Loga's thesis of 'Rig-krit' being derived from 'Simian' Tamil?) of the common name of TripAThI among North Indian brahmins? Unfortunately, 'tri-' (now we're really speaking English!) is used consistently in Sanskrit to mean 'three' (mUnRu ou mu- in Tamil...), and -pAThI means 'reader' (from the root -paTh = 'to recite'); in other words, a TripAThI is one whose ancestors were supposed to have mastered 3 of the Vedas, as contrasted to DvivedI (2) and CaturvedI (4).
Of course, if one of our Tripathi friends from
Benares were living in Tamil Nadu, he might find it more convenient to
introduce himself as, for example, Tiruppati Kamalesh Datta, “sacred preceptor
and/or preceptor of the sacred” (Vedas). After all, at the International House
at the
As you say, “a word can have several meanings even within one language...my derivation is just one of several possibilities,” far more abundant and imaginative ones being readily found in Akandabaratam, where you are perhaps more likely to find the real Tiruppati!
Happy philologizing!
Sunthar
[Rest of this thread at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabaratam/message/16080]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3003
– order of thread reversed]
From: Ganesan
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:30 AM
Is there no limit to such unimaginably wild idiotic phantasms?
What is the achievement?
Ganesan
Subject:
Re: The Hierophant [Profundus Maximus and Howlers]
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005; 2:30 am
Profundus Maximus eagerly holds forth on all subjects, but his thin
knowledge will not support a sustained assault and therefore his attacks
quickly peter out. Profundus Maximus often uses big words, obscure terms
and...ahem...even [Sumero-Tamil! - SV] to bluff his way through battle.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_15.php
Howlers generally populate academic, technical or special interest
forums [like IndianCivilization, French Institute of Indology? - SV] in which
particular issues are discussed. Newbies to such forums often wander in
thinking they have found some devastating new argument that contradicts
accepted wisdom on the forum topic. Of course, if the forum is a long-standing
and active discussion group it will probably have heard and debated the
argument at length, so instead of reviving a dead topic Howlers will simply
shout and throw excrement until the intruder leaves.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_48.php
Hello Sathia,
Since you requested my opinion on 'Sumero-Tamil', I'll just summarize my points:
Any Profundus Maximus can 'prove' that his mother-tongue is the mother of all tongues (even English) through haphazard sound resemblances that can be found between any two languages. What is required to convince the impartial are systematic sound correspondences (e.g., demonstrated between Mande and Dravidian).
Loga doesn't have even the most elementary notion of Sanskrit (e.g., how to separate the prefix/suffix from the stem of a noun, and the root of the latter). How then can he claim to 'derive' these words from 'Sumero-Tamil'? Abhinava indulges in 'pseudo-etymologizing' to drive home a valid idea, our 'linguist' simply 'doctors' his 'evidence' to glorify his own ancestry.
Why not explore the interaction between Munda and Dravidian (even before the prevalence of 'Indo-Aryan') instead of embarking on a wild-goose chase in Sumeria? For we know of ethnic Dravidians speaking Munda-related languages and vice-versa (though we don't know for sure when these contacts began).
My own suspicion is that Tamil
(Dravidian) has evolved not just under the impact of Sanskrit (and northern
Prakrits), and before that of Munda, but of (some variant of) the language
spoken by the elite of the
The Indus tongue may have been related to Sumerian in some way (due to immigration from there), but this language and culture has likewise left its traces on so many other divergent civilizations that characterizing it as 'Sumero-Tamil' is not so much a reflection of 'sound' linguistics but of an inferiority complex (on the part of alienated Malaysian Tamils?)...
I think the elusive relations between Sumerian and Indian (not just Tamil) civilization (not just language) deserves to be pursued, but Dr. Loga seems hell-bent on discrediting any such enterprise once and for all...
Regards,
Sunthar
P.S. Sathia unsubscribed on 18 Feb 05 even before any excrement could taint him, but I'll dutifully forward the package to Akandabaratam nonetheless....
[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (17 May 2003),
Is Sanskrit an areal effect of Tamil on 'Indo-European'? Kumârila and (sv-)Abhinava on the ('scientific') art of (pseudo-) etymologizing!”
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/770]
Political correctness (Weenie), subaltern rights (Ethnix), cyber-identity (Impostor): a comedy of errors?
Akandabaratam
(‘Undivided India’), devoted to a ‘Dravidian’ understanding of Agamic Hinduism
that is anti-brahmanical in tenor, is dominated by the Tamil diaspora, whereas
the much larger IndianCivilization Yahoo! Group propagates a Veda-oriented
‘orthodoxy’ (dharma) that is championed above all by
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3017 – order of thread reversed]
Fwd: [NavyaShastra] Re: The Times of
From:
Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005; 11:42 am
To:
Leave it to a soul like Venkat to evade the substance of the question
and squeak a meaningless platitude of a definition for “Hindu.” I
had asked why the VHP [Vizva Hindu PariSad] is generously giving the untouchables their
beloved status back upon reconversion, *observing* that their wealthy
white counterparts do not gain a caste through conversion. I would
add that those who do, such as Danielou (whose translation of
Manimekalai would lead me to question his “scholarship”) would not
actually live in a society where their new caste would have a social
context. Vel gave the most logical answer - that these untouchables
would have their rights of reservation restored and they could make the most of it.
If I wanted a definition of “Hindu,” I certainly wouldn't accept one
coming from an established phony and liar.
Nisala
PS: If Venkat would like to respond to this insidious and
unwarranted accusation, he is free to use either his
pretentious “history judge” or his
who loves Sanskrit but hates Loga” surrogate.
New packaging, same product: fraud. Try harder next time!
-:)
From: Malarvizhi
Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 8:26 pm
Subject: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR
Dear Moderator,
I was planning not to post anything to any e-forum for quite some
time due to the personal reasons that I mentioned in my previous
posts. But I am forced to send this post because of message number
16161 that appeared on the Akandabaratam board from the poster who
identifies himself/herself as Nisala. Did you see the post? If
not, I reproduce below the relevant portion to which I take the
strongest offence. You have unsubscribed Shri Ram for a much
milder “offence”. What do you propose to do with this poster?
He/she has made utterly baseless allegations against two members of this forum.
It was but the other day that another member left this forum in a
huff saying this poster is sick and he didn't want to take part in
any of this “insanity.”
--- In [email protected], [
>
> ...
> PS: If Venkat would like to respond to this insidious and
> unwarranted accusation, he is free to use either his
> pretentious “history judge” or his
> who loves Sanskrit but hates Loga” surrogate.
>
> New packaging, same product: fraud. Try harder next time! -:)
>
I have no idea what the provocation from my side was for the poster
to make such a baseless allegation against me. Is it because I am
Dalit? And because I am a woman too? I thought such sentiments were
the prerogative of the Dravidianist. It seems the prejudice against
Dalits/women has crossed the sea and reached the Buddhist Sinhala
heartland, if the poster's identification of himself/herself as a
Buddhist Sinhala is to be believed. In another post he/she made
some vulgar remarks specifically naming me. I am not as uncivilized
as him/her to reproduce it here. Seeing this post, I am led to
believe that he/she really is a prachhanna (Skt. “in disguise”) Dravidianist.
The poster also alleges that I “hate Loga”. Did I anytime, anywhere
say anything hateful about you, Dr. Loganathan? Is refuting another
person's arguments equivalent to hating that person? Is that the
attitude of the members of this board? Can't one debate and discuss
on this forum without having to put up with vile and vulgar personal
insults of this sort? Is it the standard of civility that you want
to maintain in this forum? You be the judge, Dr. Loganathan.
Thanks,
From: K. Loganathan
Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 9:03 pm
Subject: Re:
[akandabaratam] KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR
Dear Malar
You certainly don't hate me and from your words I also feel
that you have the highest regards for me. I know Nisala for a long time
though I am not personally acquinted with him. I also has the same
respect and which is mutual.
I will let him to explain the matter.
Any way let me assure that I don't doubt your identity
and I respect it. You are always welcome to post your views when you are free
to do so.
As a moderator I give the maximum freedom- Nisala is still
here and you can always question him. There is a minimum of some ethics and
only when these are breached I very reluctnatly unsubscribe them. I admit also
that sometimes it is difficult
I must also mention to you that Kalavai Vengkat has hurt too
many scholars with his obstinacy Brahmanism and undisguished hatred for
Dravidianists. He would consider me a Dravidanist.
I have learned to ignore him as I know better the Sacred
Tamil literature to assert positively that there is no support at all
for [varNâzhrama-dharma
= 'caste-system'] there . If he keeps on saying the contrary, I just give
up having met an impasse but without denying his rights to post to
akandabaratam.
Loga
From: Kalavai Venkat
Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR
Now, Nisala, in his eternal
be my surrogate! A little knowledge of validating user source
might've helped but then he might consider knowledge as shirk.
Fantasy should be considered the staple diet of a list dedicated to
Sumero-Tamil. I don't interpret his accusation as either 'insidious'
or 'unwarranted'. It must seen as a symptom. Nisala might be
exhibiting the typical symptoms of an organically based perceptual
aberration or deficit syndrome that the eminent neuroscientist
Oliver Sacks eloquently discusses. But Nisala might turn out to be
challenging even for Sacks because he displays unpredicatable
patterns of deficit syndrome. Just 2 days ago, he appreciated
for bracketing her with me (I am the ultimate paraiah, you see!),
then warned her not to trust me and finally today
merged with me. The Buddha would've surely advocated the middle path
for Nisala. But Kerry would be surely impressed with these
unpredictable flip-flops. Nisala must run for the next democratic convention. :-)
My sarcastic allusion to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/72076
with respect to the VHP [Vizva Hindu PariSad] was lost on Nisala but that is usual given the
prognosis. Nisala wonders why VHP doesn't confer any
white converts to Hinduism. Simple (that is, if you don't think like
a Sumero-Tamil): VHP hasn't converted whites in any organized manner. :-)
Alain Danielou lived in
from the same syndrome that Nisala likely has, he would've
experienced the social context, no? Danielou's admiration for the
varNa-jâti system has earned him Nisala's ire. Or, it could be just
a mindless fury of a marauding Hun directed at a sober scholar. We
will diagnose soon. His translation of Manimekhalai, jointly
authored by the eminent Tamil and early Tamil Buddhism scholar T V
Gopala Iyer has been damned. Of course, so long as one writes in
Akandabaratam anything can be dumped without providing reasonable
arguments. In fact, one can pass judgements without even having the
ability to read and comprehend ancient texts. But, I thought that
Danielou's acceptance of AIT and the credits he gave the Dravidian
culture, would've made him a darling here!
Dr. Loga laments that I have hurt the sensibilities of many with
my “obstinacy Brahmanism and undisguished hatred for
Dravidianists,” and wonders if I would consider him a Dravidianist.
What else would you call an EVR bhakta if not a Dravidianist? What
else would you call a brahmin-hater and Sanskrit-hater if not a
Dravidianist? Is the world under any compulsion to disguise its
hatred for Nazi or Communists? So, why should I disguise my contempt
for Dravidianists? It is always amusing to see practitioners of vile
ideologies like Dravidianism complain of ...... ah......offended sensibilities. :-)
As usual, Dr. Loga claims that there was no varnasrama in ancient
Tamil society. As usual, he failed to substantiate his bogus claim
that bhakti saints condemned varnasrama. On my part, I have cited
the exact words of the same bhakti saints and Sangam poets that
glorified varNâzrama. The last time I did so in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabaratam/message/16138
and as usual, you dodged. Now, for your benefit, I will speak very
s...l....o...w...l...y: Ancient TN was the most varNâzramic. If you
don't like varNâzrama, get ready to disown Sangam and bhakti literature.
Thanks.
[Kalavai Venkat]
From: Vel Murugan
Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
--- In [email protected],
>
> Dear Moderator,
>
> I was planning not to post anything to any e-forum for quite some
> time due to the personal reasons that I mentioned in my previous
> posts. But I am forced to send this post because of message number
> 16161 that appeared on the Akandabaratam board from the poster who
> identifies himself/herself as Nisala. Did you see the post? If
> not, I reproduce below the relevant portion to which I take the
> strongest offence. You have unsubscribed Shri Ram for a much
> milder “offence”. What do you propose to do with this poster?
> He/she has made utterly baseless allegations against two members of this forum.
>
> It was but the other day that another member left this forum in a
> huff saying this poster is sick and he didn't want to take part in
> any of this “insanity.”
>
>
Your timely defense of Mr.Kalavai Vengattu, the bigoted manuvaadi, who
never had the courage to face his opponents in his own forum, is quite
admirable, though not unexpected.
I was hoping that you would come to answer the original question of
Nisala about the conversion/reversion and restoration of the
'untouchablity' status. Not unexpectedly, you did not show up.
The general observer would have thought that such a topic should be
very close to your heart. Surprise, surprise, you were nowhere to be
found. I suppose, once you master Sanskrit in a mere 3 years, you
automatically reach the manuvaadi dwijahood. A 3 year course in
Sanskrit surely transforms people into Oreo cookies (of sorts)!
You remind me of an individual who used to claim he was only twenty
five and had alread mastered, everything in the Universe and yet
decided to pursue a Ph.D at UC Berkeley. Though he was a bigoted dvija ['twice-born']
he claimed he still had a crush for a Pakistani Muslim girl.. so on so
forth. And then one day, we all discovered he was just a plain fraud.
Now tell me, where did you learn the term 'Dravidianist' ? To my
knowledge it was introduced by our very own Kalavai Vengattu. Other
than the bigoted, like Kalavai himself, no one else that I know of has
used the term.
And my last question would be about how you normally spell
opportunity? May be this is your best opportunity to send all doubting
thomases to Sindhu Sarasvathi Vedic wonderland.
Vel Murugan
From: K. Thanappan
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:05 am
Subject: Re:
[akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR
Dear moderator, please note that people
like Vel Murugan belong to the fascist and criminal gang
of Dravidian movement which doesn't accept freedom of worship, freedom of
expression but only wants its brand of fascist Dravida theories to be
accepted by Tamilians. Fortunately, Tamils are too smart to kick
out the Dravida ideologies out.
[K. Thanappan]
From: K. Loganathan
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:21 am
Subject: Re:
[akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR
Dear K. [Thanappan],
No you are totally mistaken about Vel Murukan. I know him
long enough to learn that he is not a fascist or casteist though certainly
critical of Brahmanism and religion in general. But why blame him when in the
name of religion mass murders and such other evils are done ?
If I am not mistaken you are the one who boasts about the
Vanniyar jati. Is this necessary?
Why bring in the Dravida Kazakam which has nothing to
do with the issues at hand?
If you want to criticize Periyar and his philosophy, feel
free to do so separately.
Loga
From: Nisala Rodrigo
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005; 11:10 am
Subject: Re: Kind
Attention Moderator
> You remind me of an individual who used to claim he was only twenty
> five and had alread mastered, everything in the Universe and yet
> decided to pursue a Ph.D at UC Berkeley. Though he was a bigoted dvija
> he claimed he still had a crush for a Pakistani Muslim girl.. so on so
> forth. And then one day, we all discovered he was just a plain fraud.
Hey... this person sounds very similar to a fellow I met. He had
claimed that through his doctoral research, he would be able to
determine Indian national policy by inventing a shield against
nuclear weapons. Maybe it's just a coincidence?
Nisala
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3017]
On Weenies, Ethnixes, and Impostors - check out our svAbhinava dialogue on 'caste confusion' (varNa-sankara), (cyber-) acculturation, and (mistaken?) identity
From: Sunthar
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005; 12:28 pm
Weenie is a very sensitive guy, and it angers him that
everyone isn't as sensitive as he. A soi-disant male feminist, he not only
cares deeply about women's issues, he's concerned about poverty, people of
color, gay rights, and sea turtles. Weenie strives to be politically correct at
all times and is ever vigilant against anti progressive attitudes. Weenie is
always solicitous towards the oppressed classes, but will lash out viciously at
retrograde brutes such as Deacon
and Troglodyte.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_05.php
Ethnix is an extremely powerful Warrior who effectively
exploits [her] minority status and the general nervousness about race [caste, and gender? -SV] to gain advantage in battle.
Ethnix deftly wields [her] ethnicity [gender] and can instantly shift from defense to offense,
keeping even the most skillful Warriors off balance. Impostor,
covetous of [her] power, often impersonates Ethnix, but he can seldom maintain
the ruse. While all Warriors are wary of Ethnix, [she]
is most feared by Weenie.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_55.php
Impostor is a digital Proteus who changes his persona whenever
it suits his purposes. That 21 year old co-ed from
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_53.php
Dear
You might find this digest on “Caste, racism,
assimilation, and multiculturalism: the politics of acculturation” (still being
compiled) of interest...
http://www.svabhinava.org/HinduCivilization/Dialogues/CasteAcculturation-frame.htm
Best wishes,
Sunthar
P.S. Now you know why I'm becoming
increasingly vigilant in moderating this
[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V.
(Mar 6, 2005)
“Threads
at svAbhinava and the forum archives on caste, Sanskrit (Tamil), Afro-Dravidian
ethnicity“]
Ferrous Cranus, Grenade, Klaxon, Evil Clown
From: [Nisala Rodrigo]
Date:
Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:45 pm
Subject: Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR
Dr. Loganathan,
> You certainly don't hate me and from your words I also feel that
> you have the highest regards for me. I know Nisala for a long time
> though I am not personally acquainted with him. I also
have the same
> respect and which is mutual. I will let him explain the matter.
I will be happy to explain. If you look at Vel Murugan's response
to "Malarvizhi," you will see that I'm not the only one who has
suspected Venkat and "Malar" as being one and the same. The sad
thing is, Venkat created "Malarvizhi" entirely for the purpose of attacking YOU.
"Malarvizhi" appeared right at the same time that Venkat decided to
announce his presence in akandabaratam. That alone surely meant
nothing. If you look at my original messages to that character, I
made no accusations; I did not even suspect anything amiss. I felt
it was too good to be true that someone came with a different view,
other than "Brahmins and Sanskrit are evil and anti-Tamil."
Look at #16080 & #16098. "Malarvizhi" wastes no time revealing what
his true intention is: to argue against not only your present
SumeroTamil ideas, but also the claims you will make in the *future*
(using "sound, well reasoned arguments"). I can understand one
criticizing your *present* ideas... but who in the world would have
the gall to refute your *FUTURE* posts????? It would surely have to
be someone who has such a low opinion of you, Loga, that you would
not have the intelligence to change your views and learn. You
told "Malar" yourself that his sort of arguments are "NOT new" to you.
Probably the next question you will ask yourself, Loga, is, "Why
would Venkat use a false identity to criticize my views, when he is
already criticizing my views (derisively) himself?" The answer, as
you've hinted below, is that nobody (except for his fellow
ideologues) takes him seriously. Some attack Venkat simply because
he is a Brahmin and praises Sanskrit. For others, who see beyond
caste, linguistic, and religious identity, Venkat truly becomes
an "outcaste" due to his lies and hypocrisy, as someone who "never
had the courage to face his opponents in his own forum."
In #16114 to "Malar," I tried to indirectly give Venkat a hint that
the game was up, referring to his telltale "Venkatisms" which no
false identity could hide. Neither gave a reply. It was only after
I took the gloves off that "Malar" took time from his busy schedule to protest!
In this message to you, Venkat once again characteristically tries to
divert our attention. He accuses me of being anti-woman and anti-
Dalit. He also mentions that I claim to be Sinhalese and Buddhist.
Now, where have I made such a claim???? In #16114 I mentioned that I
am not Tamil. In #15977 I talked about words in the Sinhalese
vocabulary and about Sri Lankan paleology. If one knew enough
linguistics, he could tell that 'Nisala' is not an Indian name and
thus infer that I am Sinhalese. However, I have never stated my
religion here! In a few earlier, unrelated posts, I described
Buddhism in
literature and Saiva Siddhantha in
from these posts that I am a Buddhist, especially when most Sri
Lankans with the surname "Rodrigo" are Catholic???
So how could "Malarvizhi" conclude that I am Sinhala Buddhist?? He
would have to be someone who knows from prior experience what my
identity is: Venkat.
> Any way let me assure that I don't doubt your identity and I
> respect it. You are always welcome to post your views when you are
> free to do so.
And this is the supreme irony. Venkat will continue to openly lie,
invent identities, and write whatever garbage he wants, because he
wants to show us all the drawbacks of having an unmoderated forum.
What he doesn't apparently understand, though, is that in such
a "free-for-all," one has the freedom to show his or her greatest
insights or most pathetic ignorance. In Venkat's case, he has used
this "oppurtunity" (sic) to demonstrate for everyone his capacity for
deception. Nobody needs to take my word for it, or Vel's. They can
see for themselves!
> As a moderator I give the maximum freedom - Nisala is still here and
> you can always question him. There is a minimum of some ethics and
> only when these are breached I very reluctantly unsubscribe them. I
> admit also that sometimes it is difficult
Would the breach of minimum ethics include inventing a false identity
to serve one's own purpose? Smearing the names of all decent Tamil
Christian Dalit women who have learned Sanskrit, by hijacking their identity?
I praise your idealism, your willingness to believe that "Malar" is
who he really claims to be. The worst thing would be if Venkat was
banned, which would deprive us of the entertainment of this charade.
> I must also mention to you that Kalavai Venkat has hurt too many
> scholars with his obstinacy, Brahmanism and undisguised hatred for
> Dravidianists.
Obstinacy is not a crime, in my eyes, if it is guided by truth and
honor. When it is driven by deception, then it must be the deception
which must be exposed.
Nisala
From: [Nisala Rodrigo]
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:13
pm
Subject: Fwd: [NavyaShastra] Re: The Times of
> In his usual inimitable style, our sudhra brahmana Kalvai Vengattu,
> has avoided addressing the main issue and has expounded on the
> irrelevant issues. No surprise here.
Key word is "usual." It is no surprise, when Venkat scrambles to
cover his poorly-concealed tracks by alluding to a "Buddhist Sinhala"
prejudice against women and Dalits. It is tragic that he forgot to
separate his knowledge of my identity from his surrogate's!!!!
Nor is it a surprise, that when push comes to shove, both the Venkat
and the surrogate coincidentally try to bring in the Buddhist
identity-baiting, since there is nothing else in their (his)
arguments which smacks of substance.
And what was he trying to accomplish, by calling me a 'hidden
Dravidianist?' Now that's a mystery to ponder!
> Oh well, what else should I expect of Kalavai Vengattu?
Well, we now know that lying is a skill that does not necessarily
improve with practice!
Nisala
From: K. Loganathan
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:35 pm
Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION
MODERATOR
Dear Nisala
The lies can never hold and the liers soon get exposed. If Kalavai is lying and trying to disturb Akandabaratam with some sinister motives, it will be exposed.. Way back in Tamil net some brahmins also indulged in such games. They do not accomplish anything. When I started meykandar egroups I had to face the same problem in a different way. Well it did nothing and meykandar is still around and doing well.
Now if what you say is true, it just shows how panicky some smartha Brahmins have become. It is a sign that my theses [that] Sumerian is Archaic Tamil and that [Sanskrit] is just a variant of it are beginning to hit them. They just can't remain indifferent to these claims. In saying it is silly, mad and so forth spending so much time and useless passions, they must be perceiving substantial truth in what I say.
So let the play go on. It will come to a stop when the lies, if there are lies, get exposed.
Meanwhile let Kalavai write so that the scholalry world gets a first hand account of how vile and filthy some Smartha Brahmins can be.
It appears to me such that Brahmins are getting exposed everywhere by way of puryfying Hinduism from the millenniums of lies that Brahmanism has perpetuated.
Let me assure you that my studies will continue as usual and such tricks will have the least impact on my studies
I am in TRUTH and therefore nothing to fear.
Loga
From: Malarvizhi
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:33 pm
Subject: Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR
--- In [email protected], Vel Murugan wrote:
>
> Your timely defense of Mr. Kalavai Vengattu, the bigoted manuvaadi, who
> never had the courage to face his opponents in his own forum, is quite
> admirable, though not unexpected.
How does my denial of an allegation become become Kalavai's "timely
defence":-)
> I was hoping that you would come to answer the original question of
> Nisala about the conversion/reversion and restoration of the
> 'untouchablity' status. Not unexpectedly, you did not show up.
> The general observer would have thought that such a topic should be
> very close to your heart. Surprise, surprise, you were nowhere to be found.
Another logical argument to prove that I am Kalavai Venkat:-) My
dear friends Nisala and Vel,(if those are your real names), you two
are not that important in my life that I should set aside all that I
have to do, and respond to your questions, whether the subject is
dear or not to my heart. I had made it very clear in my previous e-
mails that I would be able to come back to this forum only after
attending to other important matters. I have other priorities -
there is my family, and there is the work that I do to earn my
livelihood. I don't have the luxury of the leisure that you seem to
enjoy in carrying out "soodra-brahmana"/ Kalavai bashing. Just now,
I am wasting my time responding to you only because you have made
vile personal allegations. Well, this will be my last response to
you or Nisala. I unfortunately don't have infinite time at my disposal.
> I suppose, once you master Sanskrit in a mere 3 years, you
> automatically reach the manuvaadi dwijahood. A 3 year course in
> Sanskrit surely transforms people into Oreo cookies (of sorts)!
Does the mention of Sanskrit irritate you? This seemd to be a
special kind of allergy that afflicts primarily Dravidianists.
> Now tell me, where did you learn the term 'Dravidianist' ? To my
> knowledge it was introduced by our very own Kalavai Vengattu. Other
> than the bigoted, like Kalavai himself, no one else that I know of has
> used the term.
You are so naive in believing that I haven't been a member of other
forums and silently watched the antics of some of the members here
in those other forums. Please remember that the majority of members
in any forum are silent. They watch in silence, and in amusement,
your "grand" performance. Well, sometimes I enrich my vocabulary
from the discussions in these varied e-forums:-) And when you
people declare proudly that you are Buddhist/Hindu/Soodra/Brahmin in
various forums those statements also remain in the back of my mind.
>
> And my last question would be about how you normally spell
> opportunity? May be this is your best opportunity to send all doubting
> thomases to Sindhu Sarasvathi Vedic wonderland.
O my, aren't we a great stickler for spelling:-) But before finding
the speck of dust in others' eyes, why not remove the stone in thine
own? O, sorry I forgot that this is not applicable to
Dravidianists. Or did you merely want to imply that as a Dalit, I
am not qualified to use the modern Deva Bhasha English?
Thank you once and all Mr. Vel Murugan, if that is your name.
Malarvizhi
From: K. Loganathan
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:04 pm
Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
Dear Friends,
I am confused. All of a sudden I get the following in the name of Radha-Canada but as if Kalavai Vegkat. Another thing is that it is NOT anymore in the archve of Akandabaratam. I am forwarding to it and to meykandar so that it goes into the archives
What's going on?
Loga
radha_canada <[email protected]> wrote:
[see above post...]
From: Vel Murugan
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:15 pm
Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION MODERATOR
--- In [email protected], K. Loganathan wrote:
> Dear Friends
>
Am I glad that you posted the messge. Before I left office, I read
this message. When I came home and looked at Akandabaratam, the
message had disappeared, but appeared later in Malarvizhi's name.
Do you see what kind of lies and deception these people are capable
of? This is what they do all their life.
Now, will the real radha_canada, who may have nothing to do with this
charade, stand up please?
I was getting ready to tear apart the mask of our sudhra brahmana
Kalavai Venkat (aka Malarvizhi). As Nisala said, he is such a pathetic
liar, he can not even cover his own tracks. These frauds are so
desperate to deceive the people, that they become their own worst enemies.
Vel Murugan
From: K. Loganathan
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:36 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
Dear Vel
In saying
<<I was getting ready to tear apart the mask of our sudhra brahmana
Kalavai Venkat (aka Malarvizhi). As Nisala said, he is such a pathetic
liar, he can not even cover his own tracks. These frauds are so
desperate to deceive the people, that they become their own
worst enemies>>
you have said something very true and I hope scholars come to know how vile and filthy some smartha Brahmins like Kalavai Vengkat (Malarvizhi) can be. These fellows are intellectually impotent and resort to such criminal games to destory even groups like Akandbaratam. Well even if the Acaryas in Kanchi Madam can be murderous criminals why not their "disciples' like Kalavai?
It just pains me to see such lowly deceptions. I will not yet unsubscribe both of them (unless they unsubscribe themselves). The more they write the more they get exposed. It is high time the world at large see how foul some of these Smartha Brahmins can be.
Now I understand why the Dravidian movement was started by Periyar. Who wouldn't when such vile and criminal Brahmins claim to be dwijas by birth and demand unquestioning obedience and acceptance. Such individuals must be EXPOSED as to what they are and eliminated
BEING is on my side for sure helping me in my tasks.
Loga
From: Vel Murugan
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:06 pm
Subject: Living a life of lies and deception -
Why Kalavai Venkat?
--- In [email protected], K. Loganathan wrote:
Dear Dr.Loga:
Myself and Nisala have known Kalavai Venkat (or whatever he may call
himself tomorrow) and his devious ways for a long time. There were too
many coincidences to ignore, and I began to smell a rat (skunk would
be better) the moment people began appearing from nowhere and were
appealing to you to give Malarvizhi a chance to express herself,
uninterrupted. Having known Kalavai Venkat for long, I know his
writing style, very well. Nisala is a very perceptive person, who can
identify a strumpet even when the strumpet is wearing a Waldo's mask.
Don't be surprised if Kalavai Venkat appears tomorrow wearing a
different mask. People who are so bigoted, resort to anything and
everything in their desperation.
In Kalavai Venkat's case, he is not only a bigoted sudhra brahmana, he
is also a paranoid schizophrenic. But, please don't discount this
fellow, either. He is being ably assisted by a whole gang of sudhra
brahmana co-conspirators.
I never thought he would give himself away so soon. I thought this
charade would reach a crescendo and then the hero would commit a
harakiri. But he chose to do it way too soon.
Vel Murugan
From: Kalavai Venkat
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:29 pm
Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
Vel initially thought Hare Krishnas didn't bestow
converts. When shown that was not so, he bristles, "So what, they
confer the same *sudhra brahmanahood* on all converts. What I said
(in Sumero-Tamil) wasn't about caste but caste-based injustices."
And then, Vel tells Nisala that the Harijans are better off as
Christians. Nisala asks, "how?" You might expect that Vel would
respond with some studies. Nope! Now, he charges Malarvizhi that she
is not responding to Nisala's challenge! Were you all confounded by
these flip-flops? Flip-flops they were, but I was impressed.
Having proposed Nisala for Prez as the Democratic candidate, we had
been searching for his running-mate for Veep. After all, it is not
easy to find someone that can flip-flop unpredictably. But, with
Akandabaratam, one needs to look no further: you get two for the
price of one. Vel is the ideal candidate for Veep. We convened an
urgent meeting of DNC and proposed Vel for Veep. Kerry was a little
bothered about the uncouth and belligerant postures of vel. But, we
smartly neutralized the
proposal and announced a 3-year project to iron out the rough edges
and turn Vel into a polished gentleman. This project has been
christened [sorry Vel, I know you hate Christianity!] J2G: from a
Jerk to a Gentleman. One of the senators, known for his sarcastic
remarks observed, "I am not sure that anything would be left after
the rough edges are gone." We promptly branded him a Manuvadi sudra
brahmana and banished him. The only concern now is whether Vel's
hair-do can match Edward's but we have 3 years to fix that.
Nisala and Vel have now declared that Malarvizhi is Kalavai and the
latest message from Loga means that Radha Canada is also Malarvizhi,
so by this logic(?) Kalavai is Radha
message implies that Vishvesh Obla, who appealed to Dr. Loga not to
interrupt Malarvizhi, is also Kalavai. Kudos, investigative
journalism in Akandabaratam has reached a crescendo! Still, I can't
understand why the investigative trio can't do a simple user source
search. Dr. Loga says that he is confused [well, that is
realization!] and bemoans that the entire smartha brahmin community
has ganged up against him. More insidiously, he calls for my
*elimination* merely on his mistaken belief that I am Malarvizhi. :-
)
Usually it is a good idea to think with a cool head before you act.
But, Nisala has been quite angry for some time. He barged into a
discussion on the date of Ashoka in IC and demanded that we discuss
the Sinhalese sources. When it was pointed out that the Sinhalese
sources are not fool-proof, his rage knew no bounds. He turned
abusive and I asked a few list members to intervene. Naturally, they
found him uncouth and demanded that he apologize. But, lacking grace
Nisala quit. The following messages make a nice bed time reading:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/46784
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/45977
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/46799
Ever since, Nisala has been behaving like the courtesan that
Vatsyayana ably describes. He has been seeing Kalavai in everything:
be it in his Vipassana meditation or Akandabaratam's Malarvizhi.
Loga's call for my elimination [isn't that a cool way to establish
Sumero-Tamil hypothesis - threatening opponents with elimination?]
needs to be addressed at leisure. Now, the great concern is teaching
our investigative trio how to check IP sources. Having proposed
Nisala & Vel for the race, I hope that they don't see Kalavai when
they debate their GOP opponents 3 years from now. Our J2G should
hopefully transform them. :-)
Thanks.
PS: Please await the release of "Idiot's guide to IP sources". The
first 3 distinguished recipients will be Nisala, Vel and Dr. Loga.
We are just anticipating 3 qualified users for this publication, so
others needn't rush to the bookstore.
From: Kalavai Venkat
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:48 pm
Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
It is hard to say when Dr. Loga will execute his threat of banning
the *two* people - Malarvizhi & myself. I would rather not think
about his more insidious threat about eliminating me. Assuming that
either of these threats don't materialize, I hope to entertain you
all again next week. :-)
Thanks.
From: [Nisala Rodrigo]
Date:
Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:31 pm
Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
Dr. Loganathan,
> you have said something very true and I hope scholars come to know
how vile and filthy some smartha Brahmins like Kalavai Vengkat
(Malarvizhi) can be. These fellows are intellectually impotent and
resort to such criminal games to destory even groups like
Akandabaratam. Well even if the Acaryas in Kanchi Madam can be
murderous criminals why not their "disciples' like Kalavai?
It is here where I cannot agree. Venkat's filthiness has nothing to
do with being a Brahmin. Hell, he's lied about so many things, would
it be a great surprise if he lied about being an Iyer? No,
his "intellectual impotence" is entirely a *personal* shortcoming.
When I think of Venkat, the image of a smoke-filled room of Brahmin
conspirators does not come to mind at all. Rather, I see a small man
hunched over a keyboard, fearfully looking over his shoulder lest
someone spy him through his shut blinds. His reasons for being so
terrified may or may not be justified- that is not for me to judge.
His addiction to deceit cannot be justified.
If lying does not produce any moral shame in this soul, who can tell
whether other evils, even murder will come as second nature. But
there is one small analogy we can make with HH Sri Jayendra Saraswati
Swamigal. His Holiness must have known without a doubt that given
the formidable powers out there trying to destroy Hinduism, any moral
lapse on *his* part as a public figure would both strengthen and
embolden such anti-Hindu forces, and may very well bring about fall
of Hindu institutions. When Venkat smears his lies and hypocrisy all
over the internet, how is he benefiting Hinduism or Sanskrit?? How
is he fighting the forces which threaten Hinduism?
> It just pains me to see such lowly deceptions. I will not yet
unsubscribe both of them (unless they unsubscribe themselves). The
more they write the more they get exposed.
That is exactly how I feel.
Nisala
From: Vel Murugan
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:20 am
Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
--- In [email protected], Kalavai Venkat
wrote:
>
> Ah, I forgot! Vel's & Nisala's uncanny and perceptive ways of
> reading patterns is legendary. Vel identified Malarvizhi as myself
> because she used the word Dravidianist. Vel thundered, "To the best
> of my knowledge, it was Kalavai who coined this word. Except him,
> nobody uses this word." So, the identification of Malarvizhi as
> Kalavai was complete in the court of perceptive judges! Vel's
> reference to "the best of Vel's knowledge" made me curious:"Why
> people trust their (even non-existent) wisdom so much?" I wondered
> and philosophically concluded, "It must be maya." But a simple
> google search returns numerous links that deploy the word
>
Dravidianist:
>
> http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html
> http://anthropology.uchicago.edu/courses/michicago/2002.shtml
> http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ait/ch47.htm
>
> So, per Vel's & Nisala's *perceptive* logic, it is imperative to
> conclude that N S Rajaram, Steve Farmer (who cites NSR), Koenraad
> Elst and the entire team at the anthropology department of the
>
> is none other than Malarvizhi, who is none other than
Radha
> who is none other than Vishvesh Obla.
>
> Cool & Happy week-end! :-)
>
> Thanks.
The fun never ends. Kalavai should make up his mind soon. Instead of
insisting on entertaining us, he should consult a physician about his
inner conflicts about his identity - I mean, not being sure if he is
Kalavai Venkat or Malarvizhi. My dear friend, paranoid schizophrenia
is not state of enlightenment, even if the Vedas might say so. My
dear Kalavai, it is a serious mental disorder.
In his state of perpetual confusion, Ms.Kalavai Venkat has chosen to
speak for his alter ego. It is all the voices he hears inside his
head! It is not really his fault.
Poor fellow does not even understand that when some one refers to
something in quotes, it is not his own. Here is what Steve Farmer says
in the above reference. Who do you think S.Faramer is referring to? It
should be to you, or one of your fellow manuvaadins, who learnt the
term from you.
--
It should be noted that the claim that "Horse bones have been found at
all levels at Harappan sites" is disputed by specialists on the issue,
including
"prominent 'Dravidianist'" referred to in this passage is I.
Mahadevan, author of the most widely used concordance of
inscriptions (1977). Mahadevan's views on Harappan horses are
contained in part of an interview archived at the www.harappa.com website.
--
Well, if he had that much sense he would not started the whole
charade, knowing full well, that he is going to end up exposing
himself without anyone asking for it. That is what happens when you
ride on the Harappan horse to the Sindu Sarasvathi Vedic Disneyland.
Poor fellow. Kalavai Venkat, you should consult a shrink as soon as
you can.
Vel Murugan
From: [Nisala Rodrigo]
Date:
Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:49 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Vel,
> In Kalavai Venkat's case, he is not only a bigoted sudhra brahmana, he
> is also a paranoid schizophrenic. But, please don't discount this
> fellow, either. He is being ably assisted by a whole gang of sudhra
> brahmana co-conspirators.
Who??? Kalyanaraman? Can you name a single member of IC who goes to
such phenomenal lengths to inflict self-humiliation, as Venkat?? Who
has that bizarre yet unique combination of pretentious self-
righteousness with cowardice and deceit?? And let's be realistic: if
Venkat draws upon the resources of any loyal followers willing to
take a bullet for him, wouldn't that surely mean that they would be
less intelligent than even him???
No, I think this sort of one-man act should be discounted. The thing
which a personality like Venkat feeds on most is the delusion that
he's important and feared by his opponents. Summon to mind, if you
dare, the image of a masked Sanskrit Avenger, the very avatar of
Dharma leading an army, driving the ignorant Periyarists/Marxists/P-
Secs out of the internet and striking fear into their hearts. It's
hard to hold that image in your head for long, isn't it? Because it
doesn't take long for reality to kick in and see Venkat trip over his
own cape and demask himself?
> I never thought he would give himself away so soon. I thought this
> charade would reach a crescendo and then the hero would commit a
> harakiri. But he chose to do it way too soon.
Yeah, we deserved a better show than this flop. Unfortunately, we'll
have to accept the harsh truth that this is as good as it will ever get.
Nisala
From: K. Thanappan
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:37 am
Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION
MODERATOR
just for info. kalavai in tamil also means sex.
[K. Thanappan]
From: K. Thanappan
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:52 am
Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND ATTENTION
MODERATOR
Dear loga, vel et al,
vanniyar is just my heritage and part of my history the same way iyer, iyengar, mudaliar, thevar pallar, parayar, pariyaree, sakkili, vannaan, nadar, konga vellala gounder, agamudiyar, servai etc is for the respective people. why do we have to deny our history. the laws of manu shastra doesnt exists anymore but it is no doubt the reason of our heritage. why cant we tamils honestly accept it. the malaysalees, telegus, kanadigas have no problem with their caste/clan title such as nair, menon, pannikar, reddiar, rao, naidu etc. people who dont like their caste/clan titles esp parayars, pariyaree, pallar sakkili, vannaan etc just have to change their own title but they dont have the right to tell others not to add their heritage title to their names.
History should not be denied or covered up. all of us adhere to todays laws that all people irrespective of color, gender, race, religion, caste are equal.
thanks.
[K. Thanappan]
From: [Radhakrishna Warrier]
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:44 am
Subject: Spurious Post
Dear Dr. Loga,
I see from the discussion here that a spurious post purportedly
originating from me appeared on this board and was cancelled later.
This is to inform you that the post did not originate from me. I
have taken all reasonable precautions that a normal home PC owner
would take to protect his PC. So, with a good degree of confidence I
can say that it did not originate from my PC. However, I cannot be
100% sure as no PC owner in these days can be. So, if any member of
this board ever receives a suspicious e-mail purportedly originating
from my e-mail ID, please inform me by personal e-mail at your
earliest convenience. Please bear with me for any inconvenience caused.
As an unfortunate consequence of the fake post, my name has been
linked with a poster who goes by the name Malarvizhi. I have nothing
to do with the said poster.
I would also request Dr. Loga to post this message to all the boards
where he has posted copies of the spurious post purportedly
originating from me.
Thanks and regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier
From: K. Loganathan
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:00 am
Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Spurious Post
Dear Radha
I believe you and never suspected for a moment that you could have written that. It appears to be our Kalavai Venkat who started posting under the name Malarvizhi. The sharp eyes of Nisala and Vel Murugan helped us to expose this fraud.
Please check up Kalavai to find out how it was managed. I am not at all good in such games.
Anyway in whatever name a person publishes, his MIND comes through the post and exposes him as to what he is.
The news of this fraud is spreading across the various egroups and I hope they forward this message to their groups.
I wish to thank Nisala and Vel here for exposing Kalavai - a disgrace really.
Loga
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:16 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
I visited the IC archives and it appears this guy was removed as
moderator there. Probably his antics became too much for even that
group. Btw, the postings there seem more on-topic these days.
Regards,
Paul Kekai
Manansala
From: [Abhinavagupta member = Identity withheld}
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:02 PM
To: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Subject: Re: On Weenies, Ethnixes, and Impostors - check out our svAbhinava
dialogue on 'caste confusion' (varNa-sankara), (cyber-) acculturation, and
(mistaken?) identity
Dear Sunthar,
Please do keep forwarding these priceless exchanges :) ROTFL!! [Rolling On The Floor Laughing :-))]
Thanks!
[Name withheld - SV] (A tremendous fan - Ooops! Sorry if that set off any alarm bells. It shouldn't. You are a real life Rishi - collating valuable documents and producing priceless commentary.)
>
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3018]
Your time's finally up Shakespear Warrier...see what happens to cyber-theater when the Evil "manuvâdî zûdra-brahmin" Clown takes command of English (apabhramza)! [Ferrous Cranus, Grenade, Klaxon, Evil Clown]
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005; 8:50 am
Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas, and when engaged in battle he will not yield an inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness. Though his thrusts are decisively repulsed, his arguments crushed in every detail and his defenses demolished beyond repair he will remount the same attack again and again with only the slightest variation in tactics. Sometimes out of pure frustration Philosopher will try to explain to him the failed logistics of his situation, or Therapist will attempt to penetrate the psychological origins of his obduracy, but, ever unfathomable, Ferrous Cranus cannot be moved.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_62.php
Grenade isn't actually a Warrior, per se, but he is an
ordnance so widely employed by combatants that no Flame Warriors guide would be
complete without mentioning him. When lobbed into a discussion forum Grenade
instantly reduces any semblance of reasonable discourse to smoking rubble and
sets in motion the forces of war. Grenade can be loaded with different
explosives depending on the forum, but some common detonating materials
are Clinton, gun control, homosexuality, Reagan, abortion, taxes,
conspiracy theory, the NEA, welfare reform, [caste!]
etc. When beleaguered and facing certain defeat a Warrior can deflect even the
most determined attack by triggering a diversionary explosion. Grenade is a
particularly destructive weapon when wielded by Evil Clown, Issues, Troglodyte and even
Weenie, but almost
any Warrior can use it to gain a temporary strategic advantage. Grenade is the
preferred weapon of Troller and L'Enfant Provocateur.
Eagle Scout has
been known to throw himself upon Grenade to save the forum.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_64.php
WARNING!!! YOU MUST READ THIS!!! Klaxon, the internet Chicken Little,
raises the alarm for each and every paranoid conspiracy theory, Federal
Big-Brother scheme, internet hoax, and latest computer virus. No black helicopter
alert is so ludicrous, no urban legend so implausible, that he will not
pass it along as accepted fact (in ALL CAPS with multiple exclamation marks).
Congratulations, you are recipient 16,747 of today's Urban Myth. CAUTION: Often Klaxon knowingly posts false alarms to
foment mischief.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_73.php
Evil Clown is very quick with a joke, but his jests always
have a barb. He has little patience for in-depth discussions and will often
disrupt exchanges between serious forum participants by introducing irrelevant
topics, fatuous quips, and offhand comments. His greatest thrill is to taunt
and humiliate weaker or more plodding Warriors with his snappy ripostes. When a
strong Warrior finally corners him Evil Clown will attempt to escape by
accusing his attacker of having no sense of humor.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_34.php
So too does the VidûSaka [Evil Clown] - through his incongruous speech, attire, ornaments, etc. - deploy the 'semblance of humor'...
Abhinavagupta, (ever-new esoteric) Commentary on the
Science and Art of (Cyber-?) Theater (nâTya-zâstra)
Dear Malarvizhi (or are you rather some shady 'Dravidian'
You are one real bombshell of a Dalit! A human
Grenade that could well inspire these Al Qaida warriors unfortunately still in
the service of One humorless God... But what was the "detonating
material" giving you such explosive force? Diffuse 'casteist' hatred that
just needs a focal point, a spark of ignition, to draw into the limelight all
its inherent (self-) contradictions, before exiting (dis-?) gracefully when
hoisted onto the inevitable role of scapegoat (the brahmin clown's function according
to FBJ Kuiper). So what have we now: the Vedic version of the Protocols of
Zion!
With more than 400 members on this Abhinava list
that has been steadily 'cannibalizing' both Indian Civilization and
Akandabaratam (= asylum for 'the whole of India':-), perhaps we should charge
our pals (PayPal?) a
nominal fee for membership, say US$1 per month (guru-dakSiNâ)?
It would be a grievous insult to the memory of my guru to commercialize what he gave me so freely
(though we are all obliged to put up with advertisements embedded into these
'free' Yahoo! emails, you won't find any at the svAbhinava site...), but I'm
sure He - assuming he is still around at Play like Lord Shiva (tiru-vilaiyâDal) and has not dissolved back into
some brahmanic Void (on account of his onerous Vedântic karma...) - won't hold anything against me for
charging a nominal 'entertainment tax' from all these (would-be) devotees of
Abhinavagupta!
Considering that there are so many well-armed
warriors bracing to "eliminate" you, I hope you'll excuse this loony
Clown—after all I did my doctorate on the incorrigible (Ferrous Cranus?) VidûSaka—for
discoursing at such boring length with a (mere?) figment of his imagination!
Better luck next time!
Sunthar
P.S. to Paul and other Warriors: Far from being removed, at least to my knowledge, Kalavai voluntarily and "obstinately" quit as moderator of Indian Civilization—despite pleas from all sides to stay on—in protest against the irresponsible antics of his friend, the list owner...
[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (Mar 10, 2005)
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3019 – order of thread reversed]
Re: Your time's finally up Shakespear Warrier...see what happens to cyber-theater when the Evil "manuvâdî zûdra-brahmin" Clown takes command of English (apabhramza)!
From: V. Ravishankar
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005; 9:50 am
Hi Sunthar,
I am quite puzzled by this convoluted politics of jathism [casteism] of Tamils. I am not sure why this started in this forum again and where it ended. I assumed that this is what rages on in Akandabaratam and Indian Civilization, etc.m sites and have steered clear of them. [I mean I never visited them as far as I can tell. If I clicked on a link and was routed there, I don't remember it].
There may be some reason why you posted all this here. It is not clear to me though. In the end your posting or comments as a moderator are not clear to me either.
Did you conclude that Malarvizhi is a non-person / bogus id used to subvert legitimate exchanges in the forum?
Is there some conclusion that we can draw from this - does this mean the majority of the people who participated in the exchanges think that social constructivism is what makes people, and individuals, are incapable of dissociating themselves from their backgrounds and personal experiences to think away from them? But then some people, I mean the same people, are also assuming that somehow they have the superior ability to separate themselves from their personal experiences and become 'independent thinkers' and 'progressive' people too, isn't it? By a strange recursive process they attribute their own capacity to be independent thinkers back to their own primordial identities, thereby in a circular reasoning process they suddenly make their own community or identity group to be pretty much holy and uncorrupt in its essence. That never ceases to amaze me, how the human mind is so capable of self-deception.
Thind of posturing goes against all normal (thinking or experience based)sociology.
In any population, thinkers will come from all
classes of people, and therefore as a local population will also have a
reasonable spread around some sort of a mean. The average set of ideas may be
to the left or to the right of what you may consider the average set of ideas
that belong to the global population, if you can imagine such a homogeneity or
universality among all humans of the world. [It is hard to assume that, because
most things that are significant to the
So can there be really universality among humans? Will universality emerge only in notions of ethics and conduct and 'social justice' then? Or what is permissible in collectivities as acceptable behavior?]
But there will be a spread among every local population, and there will be the so called 'radical transformation' group as well as the group which is complacent about the current state of affairs, and then some who will resist changes come what may along with some who will even wish to go back to some pristine periods. Of course those who wish to go back to pristine periods could be 'radical transformation' school too - like the Wahaabbists or Khomeinists or Jihadists or Hindutva people or evangelical fundies or even Maoists. Needless to say some factions of Dravidianists fall into this category, though not all clearly. The specific locations within a society which are contested therefore belong to the same kind of people with oppositional directions - like the smartha brahmins that Loga is fulminating against all the time, and the die-hard Vedic period revivalists on the opposite camp who think that smoke from grass can protect against nuclear radiation.
So I speculate that just as there is a local spread within a local sample, or sub-population, there could be a spread among sub-local locations as well? hmm...
As I am hard pressed for time I won't get into an elaboration of the ideas I scattered here. But overall, those who allow themselves autonomy from primordial identities are so bent on sticking an incapacity to be autonomous thinkers on those whom they detest and consider as 'other' who has to be eliminated.
That is racism in the Tamil political arena, and
essentialism in the multiculturalist arena of the global politics.
Unfortunately the 'progressive's are not as free of either of the viral
infections as they imagine themselves to be. But then why is that? Is it really
impossible to be free of essentialism then? Are there some degrees of
essentialism that are necessary for any kind of inter-human exchanges?
Something on the lines of 'loosely coupled systems' that some management
scholars have brought up in
Regards,
Ravishankar
[Response to Sunthar's post (Mar 11, 2005) at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3018]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3019]
Re: Your time's finally up Shakespear Warrier...see what happens to cyber-theater when the Evil "manuvâdî zûdra-brahmin" Clown takes command of English (apabhramza)!
From: V. Ravishankar
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005; 9:50 am
Dear Ravishankar,
I did receive your email, just as I am finishing up the proofing here, that this was actually intended to be a private reply to me. However, I'm allowing your (inadvertent) 'post' through nevertheless because these are very valid and pertinent self-reflexive interrogations (that are unfortunately not being raised in those 'other' forums where all the 'action' is...despite that many of those members hold 'dual nationality' in this forum as well!). Judging by previous experience, it might be better to grant you the opportunity (and incentive?) to come back to summarize and clarify your points below, rather than deny other members of the benefit of looking at this (tragi-?) 'comedy' of (not just cyber-) life through a different set of glasses...
Thanks and best wishes,
Sunthar
Propeller-Head, Target, Swarm, Peacemaker
From: pirayaani
Date:
Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:44 am
Subject: Re: Spurious Post
This is all weird, it seems that akandabaratam has been hit by a
very clever hacker, how else is it possible to send a post from
someone else's mail, in this case Radha. And how is it
possible to
cancel a post when it is already sent?
pirayaani
From: Paul Kekai
Manansala
Date:
Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:00 am
Subject: Re: Spurious Post
All you have to do is spoof Radha's email. Not very difficult. Most
programs allow you to change the sender address. Don't let too many
people know about this.
You can cancel email posting privileges in your membership
preferences which will prevent others, but also yourself,
from email
posting. You can still post via the web after you have
signed in.
> And how is it possible to
> cancel a post when it is already sent?
>
The moderator, or a hacker who gained access to moderator functions,
can delete posts.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala (moderator of two yahoogroups)
From: David Russell
Watson
Date:
Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:37 am
Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
--- In [email protected], "nuruodo"
<rodness@m...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "Dr." Loganathan
wrote:
> >
> > you have said something very true and I hope
scholars come to
> > know how vile and filthy some smartha Brahmins like Kalavai
> > Vengkat (Malarvizhi) can be. These fellows are
intellectually
> > impotent and resort to such criminal games to destory even
> > groups like Akandbaratam. Well even if the Acaryas in
Kanchi
> > Madam can be murderous criminals why not their "disciples' like
Kalavai?
>
> It is here where I cannot agree. Venkat's filthiness
has nothing
> to do with being a Brahmin.
"Vile", "filthy", "Venkat's
filthiness"?
I have had more than
one extremely heated argument with Venkat myself,
including
what came very close to outright name calling, but even in
my
most angry moments never would I have considering calling
him
"vile" or "filthy". These two words,
however disturbingly, are
the least of it.
> If lying does not produce any moral shame in this
soul, who can
> tell whether other evils, even murder will come as second nature.
You're refering to the accused acharya, but the manner in
which
both of you have worded it, you are referring to Venkat as
well.
Do you truly intend to publicly claim that Venkat is
inclined to murder?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, somebody should
sue.
David
From: David Russell
Watson
Date:
Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:40 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
--- In [email protected], Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>
> I visited the IC archives and it appears this guy was
removed
> as moderator there.
That is most certainly not the case. It was Venkat's
own decision to resign as moderator. His moderatorship
in fact had the approval of most of the active posters,
and several expressed their regrets at seeing him go.
> Probably his antics became too much for even that
group. Btw,
> the postings there seem more on-topic these days.
You make two entirely baseless inferences here. First,
that the group objected to him and so removed him, and
second, that he was somehow responsible for the list
supposedly going off topic.
Do you have no shame, or simply a problem reading the
I.C. archives?
David
From: K. Loganathan
Date:
Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:17 am
Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re:
Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Dear David
This possible [error] on the part of Paul has been already pointed out by Sunthar. So why harp on it? What are
intentions?
Loga
From: K. Loganathan
Date:
Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:27 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
Dear David
Thank-you and I appreciate your kindness . Perhaps you are
more generous than we are or at least I am. After what he has done in
Akandabaratam if the words 'vile' 'filthy' and so forth are
inappropriate, the least descriptive of his behaviour what will the right
words to describe what he has done?
Now about Jayendra Swamikal etc Nisala has pointed out
that such generalizations may not hold and I have accepted that. However I feel
that what matters is Brahmanism and which creates such individuals. Dr
Ambedkar seems to have had such views.
But what is the new thing you are trying to say? Am I to take it that
Brahmanism does not create such centres as Kanchi Madam and such individuals as
Kalavai ?
Loga
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:38 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
--- In [email protected], K. Loganathan wrote:
> Dear David
>
> This possible on the part of Paul has been already
pointed out by
> Sunthar. So why harp on it? What are intentions?
>
He seems to have some type of personal fixation.
Anyway I just did a cursory search on the whole identity
thing and
found out that Venkat was no longer moderator.
As for him being partly responsible for it going
off-topic. Yes, I
stand by that statement. He was moderator when this
happened in the
extreme, and I stopped visiting the group. Many of the
postings at
that time were very strong messages against just about every non-
brahminist group in
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
From: Vel Murugan [to David]
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:31 am
Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
I don't know what acharya you are referring to. If you are
referring
to the fraud who masquerades as some kind of Hindu
religious head,
operating from Kanchivaram, then it is you, who has to
explain your
innuendo about the said 'acharya' 's inclination for
murder. If you
are convinced that the 'acharya' is capable of murder,
then and only
then, your inferences would be valid. Then the onus will
be on you to
prove that the revered acharya is, in fact, inclined to
murder.
Such accusations as you have made against the revered
acharya, will
not be taken to kindly by certain sections of the manuvaadi sudhra
brahamanas.
Vel Murugan
From: Vel Murugan [to Paul]
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:04 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
It is strange that these kind of people are more than
willing to
overlook some of the serious offenses and are more
bothered about
trifle things.
Radha Krisha Warrier makes a disclaimer about he not being
responsible
for the post made through his account. I do not think it
is a case of
email spoofing. The fact that the poster was able to
delete/recall the
message implies that it was posted using the username and
password of
Radha Krishna Warrier. Yahoo forums allow you to delete a
message
posted by you, but then you have to authenticate using
your bonafide
username/password.
How
did Malarvizhi (yes, don't we know who she is?) get hold of the
username
and password of Radha Krishna Warrier? It should have been
acquired
illegally through hacking and this is considered a punishable
offense.
I do
not think Malarvizhi (or what ever he is calling himself today)
has
the necessary software engineering savvy to
break into Radha
Krishna
Warrier's computer. Even if he did, why of
all people Radha
Krishna
Warrier, who thinks Loga's sumero-Tamil thesis is an affront
to
his sense and sensibilities? That situation sounds very implausible.
What
do we make of this?
Vel
Murugan
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:14 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
You are right, Vel. I forgot that Yahoo allows the original
poster
to cancel the message, and Radha does claim someone else
cancelled it.
Thus, it looks like "Radha Krishna Warrier" is the same as Dravid
brahmin "Kalavai Venkat."
And as "Malarvizhi" has dropped out of sight,
one can only wonder if
the saraswati sudra brahmana is trying to figure out how to
make
that identity less obviously his own manifestation.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
From: "radha_canada"
Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005
12:36 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Dear Paul and other list members,
It is quite unfortunate that somebody used my account to
post under
a fake indentity. I am no expert, and can't say how this
could have
been done. Also, I don't want to go public with my
suspicions. The
best that I can do is to say that I am not responsible for
it.
I am sure that Dr. Loga and most responsible list members
know that
I am not Kalavai Venkat. I don't think it is difficult for those
who have read our posts in different e-forums to
appreciate that we
are two different individuals holding very divergent views
on many matters.
I have attacked Dr. Loga's linguistic theories in this and
other
forums in the past. But those are not personal attacks.
And I am
sure Dr. Loga knows that. I hold Dr. Loga in high esteem
as a
person. Again, I am sure that Dr. Loga reciprocates that
feeling.
I said recently that I would not post anything to this
forum. That
was as a protest against the unsubscribing of Shri Ram
Varmha. I
made a previous post to let list members know that I have
nothing to
do with the recent fake posts. And I am posting this
because I saw
the statement that I am Kalavai Venkat. This is to request
all not
to harbour such mistaken notions that Kalavai Venkat and I
are the
same person. I hope Dr. Loga will step in to discourage the
tendency to discuss such unfounded guesses.
Thanks and regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:13 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Radhakrishna, if I am mistaken, then I apologize.
If what you say is true, then someone must have hacked your
account
since not anyone can just cancel another's message.
If it is shown to be Kalavai, then I think Dr. Loga must
commit
digital brahminicide i.e., ban the shudra from
Akandabaratam.
I would also suggest changing your yahoo password.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
From: pirayaani
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:40 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Maybe try to contact Yahoo if they can track down the person?
pirayaani
From: Vel Murugan
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Dear Paul:
I have followed Radha Krishna Warrier's posts for a while
now. I can
vouch for Radha Krishna and his distinct identity. Radhakrishna
Warrier and Kalavai Venkat are two separate people.
How exactly Shiree Kalavai Venkat got hold of his yahoo
account will
remain an unsolved mystery. Though Radhakrishna Warrier and Kalavai
Venkat differ on issues, there is also common denominator.
I have
never seen Kalavai Venkat taking issues with Radhakrishna
because he
differed with him. It is entirely unlikely that Kalavai
Venkat wanted
to create trouble for Radhakrishna. If he loses people
like
RadhaKrishna, there will be no one left in IC audience who does not
belong to the manuvaadi sudhra brahmana kind. Even if Kalavai Venkat
hates him for whatever personal reasons, Radhakrishna's
goodwill
towards IC is of strategic importance to IC, in order to
give a
semblance of diversity of opinions.
My strong suspicion is that there is some kind of an underground
resistance movement made up of members, who are different
personalities of Kalavai Venkat, to disrupt discussion
forums that do
not subscribe to manuvaadi sudhra brhamana world view. There are bound
to be people sympathetic to this crusade of Kalavai
Venkat.
Loga is hated like a plague in these manuvaadi sudhra
brahmana circles
- whether it be for his Sumero-Tamil, Rigkrit or Saiva
Siddanta. Most
likely, it is for his clear understanding of Saiva
Siddanta philosophy
and his unabashed criticism of manuvaadins.
On the issue of banning kalavai Venkat, I think it will be a wrong
idea to unsubscribe him from Akandabaratam. If we ban him, he can
always come back in another avatar. It does not solve any
purpose. And
we become no different than the manuvaadi sudhra brahmana
country club
called IC. Think about it. We need a vidusaka like Kalavai
Venkat in
this forum.
Vel Murugan
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:59 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
--- In [email protected], Vel Murugan wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> >
>
> On the issue of banning Kalavai Venkat, I think
it will be a wrong
> idea to unsubscribe him from Akandabaratam. If we ban
him, he can
> always come back in another avatar. It does not solve
any purpose. And
> we become no different than the manuvaadi sudhra
brahmana country club
> called IC. Think about it. We need a vidusaka like
Kalavai Venkat in
> this forum.
>
I agree with you generally, Vel. I was only saying that in
case
somehow we managed to expose Kalavai as the culprit in what would be
a criminal offense. In that instance, I would have no sympathy for
him as there are many other forums for him to preach his
sudrabrahmana-varnadharmasastra.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
From: K. Loganathan
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:37 pm
Subject: Fwd: malarvizhi, kvenkat,
radha_canada
I am just forwarding this information for those who want
to chase the various ghosts like KV RadhaKrishna Malarvizhi and so forth.
Loga
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:15:01 -0000
To: K. Loganathan
Subject: malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada
I just watched the acrimonious exchanges on your list.
There should be a way of settling these acrimonious
debates here. I
just checked most if not all of malarvizhi's posts.
His/her posts
were originated from the IP: 24.215.115.170 (ISP:
eastlink.ca), and
His/her first post appeared on Feb 26, 05. Given people do
post from
workplace, and from home, we can expect two different IP
addies for
the same poster.
There is a puzzling coincidence. Many of radha_canada's were
originated from the same IP addy (24.215.115.170). For
instance, look
at the posts #14919(1/15/05), #14969(1/17/05).
KVenkat's posts were originating from different IPs from
the one
listed above.
You can post this message, only by *removing my name from the post*.
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:00 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: malarvizhi, kvenkat,
radha_canada
--- In [email protected], K. Loganathan wrote:
> I am just forwarding this information for those who want to
chase
the various ghosts like KV RadhaKrishna Malarvizhi and so forth.
>
> Loga
>
>
> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:15:01 -0000
> To: "K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@y...>
> Subject: malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada
>
>
> I just watched the acrimonious exchanges on your list.
>
> There should be a way of settling these acrimonious debates
here. I
> just checked most if not all of malarvizhi's posts. His/her
posts
> were originated from the IP: 24.215.115.170(ISP:
eastlink.ca),
Does radha_canada live in
which appears to be a Canadian ISP (.ca =
However, that is a strange ISP for malarvizhi who supposedly
lives
in Mumbai.
--- In [email protected],
"Malarvizhi"
<malarvizhi76@y...> wrote:
>
> Good Morning Shri Kalavai Venkat,
>
> It is morning here in Mumbai now. A good evening if you are
on
the other side of the globe. Morning hours are fleet footed here
in this wonderful mahanagar. They zip past you, and before you
know it, it is time to get ready to go to work. And before you
have had time to think anything, you will be back home in the
golden Friday evening. We don't look forward to two days of gay
abandon as in the West. Just two quiet days with family,
friends,
and books. And by the way, some of us have a six day, and not a
>five day week in this part of the globe.
While digital royal brahmanicide with HRM Dr. Loganathan as
reigning
sovereign of Akandabaratam is to be avoided, it should not be
ruled
out entirely.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
From: K. Loganathan
Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005
7:48 pm
Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: Fwd:
malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada
Dear Paul
I will not still unsubcribe Kalavai Venkat and so forth
for the simple reason that these various kinds of mischevous plays serve to
expose the evils of Brahmanism quite effectively. As I have said many times
this is a cancer with its criminal VarNasrama Dharma that has done great harm to the Indians in general and
where now we have 260 million people pushed down as Dalits and so forth. Even when they become Muslims
and Christians, there seem to be NO ESCAPE for them.
The root cause of it all is this Brahmanism and the whole
of Indian society must be wiped clean of this malaise for it to move again on a
healthy path where each individual is given the basic human rights and dignity.
I want also the Brahmins to feel ashamed of themselves in
calling them Brahmins who are dwijas by virtue of birth alone. When they entertain criminal tendencies, how can they respected as
spiritual heads?
Brahmanism coupled with the Advaita Vedanta seems to have
KILLED the ethical dimensions of the human mind so that for them even various
kinds of criminal
activities seem
to be quite acceptable as long the supremacy of the Brahamins is not
challenged.
I believe that only the EXPOSURE of their grossly unethical behaviour will root out
Brahmanism. Akandabaratam can be the forum for such an exorcism.
Nothing to worry as BEING is there to take care of everything.
Loga
From: [Nisala Rodrigo]
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:31 pm
Subject: Fwd: [akandabaratam] Re: KIND
ATTENTION MODERATOR
david_russell_watson,
> --- In [email protected], "nuruodo" wrote:
> > --- In [email protected], "Dr." Loganathan
wrote:
> > > you have said something very true and I
hope scholars come to
> > > know how vile and filthy some smartha
Brahmins like Kalavai
> > > Vengkat ( Malarvizhi) can be. These fellows
are intellectually
> > > impotent and resort to such criminal games
to destory even
> > > groups like Akandbaratam. Well even if the
Acaryas in Kanchi
> > > Madam can be murderous criminals why not
their "desciples' like
> > > Kalavai?
> > It is here where I cannot agree. Venkat's
filthiness has nothing
> > to do with being a Brahmin.
> "Vile", "filthy", "Venkat's
filthiness"? I have had more than
> one extremely heated argument with Venkat myself,
including
> what came very close to outright name calling, but
even in my
> most angry moments never would I have considering
calling him
> "vile" or "filthy". These two
words, however disturbingly, are
> the least of it.
The problem with the terms "vile" and
"filthy" is that they're too
subjective, don't really carry much meaning beyond a
disgust for the
person on whom they are applied to. I'll amend my
statement:
Venkat's filthiness arising from his paranoia, cowardice,
and deceit
has nothing to do with being a Brahmin.
> > If lying does not produce any moral shame in
this soul, who can
> > tell whether other evils, even murder will come
as second nature.
> You're refering to the accused acharya, but the
manner in which
> both of you have worded it, you are referring to
Venkat as well.
> Do you truly intend to publicly claim that Venkat is
inclined to murder?
I phrased the question above in the form of a statement. I
was
pointing out Venkat's lack of moral shame, and that a lack
of moral
shame could lead one to do anything. "Lack of moral shame"
means not
feeling bad about doing something which most cultures/value
systems
agree is bad (in this case, lying like there's no tomorrow).
> I've said it before and I'll say it again, somebody
should sue.
When and where did you say this, and who should sue who
for what? Why?
Unfortunately, the notion of transparency in Western law
would
probably scare away someone like Venkat, if it ever came
to that. If
he wanted to bring anyone to court, he would have to
appear as a plaintiff.
Nisala
From: [Nisala Rodrigo]
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:36 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
> > Probably his antics became too much for even that
group. Btw,
> > the postings there seem more on-topic these
days.
> You make two entirely baseless inferences here.
First,
> that the group objected to him and so removed him,
and
> second, that he was somehow responsible for the list
> supposedly going off topic.
I agree. There's no way Venkat could've been responsible
for the
list going off topic, if the topic is how to blame everything wrong
in
> Do you have no shame, or simply a problem reading the
> I.C. archives?
Given that the IC archives are closed to the public (a
grand
statement of its commitment to open knowledge and
transparency),
there may be lots of problems reading them. However, one could gain
access by following Venkat's example and joining under a
false identity.
Nisala
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:51 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: malarvizhi, kvenkat,
radha_canada
--- In [email protected], "K. Loganathan"
wrote:
> Dear Paul
>
> I will not still unsubcribe Kalavai Vengkat and so
forth for the
simple reason that these various kinds of mischevous plays
serve to
expose the evils of Brahmanism quite effectively.
>
I submit to your flawless reasoning, Dr.
Let us hope the wicked sudra brahmins (and not all are such) will
realize the dark destination of their crooked path, and fully repent
with contrite and circumcised heart.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
From: [Nisala Rodrigo]
Date:
Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:28 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Paul,
> You are right, Vel. I forgot that Yahoo allows the
original poster
> to cancel the message, and Radha does claim someone
else cancelled it.
> Thus, it looks like "Radha Krishna Warrier"
is the same as Dravid
> brahmin "Kalavai Venkat."
I would have a very hard time believing that Radha is
another of
Venkat's inventions, given how pathetic his attempt to
construct "Malarvizhi" was. Radha has demonstrated too much
of an
independent personality, with none of the
"coincidences" to have
anything to do with Venkat.
> And as "Malarvizhi" has dropped out of
sight, one can only wonder if
> the saraswati sudra brahmana is trying to figure out
how to make
> that identity less obviously his own manifestation.
I surely hope so. I was hoping for a moment that
"Malarvizhi" would
have replaced Venkat, giving a less grotesque and
fraudulent veneer
to this otherwise grotesque, fraudulent soul. Unfortunately, he
didn't recognize my warning for what it was, and now he's
in the
pathetic position of having to defend his lie to everyone.
Maybe
when he makes his next surrogate less obvious, the rest of
us we'll
be able to deal with him as a credible human being.
Nisala
|
From: Ambrose Date:
Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:19 am Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re:
Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat? |
Dear Radha,
radha_canada wrote:
It
is quite unfortunate that somebody used my account to post under
a
fake indentity. I am no expert, and can't say how this could have
been
done. Also, I don't want to go public with my suspicions. The
best
that I can do is to say that I am not responsible for it.
No one suspects anything until one day your mail came.
After several minutes away the same contends of the mail
came under Malar's name.
Can you send your
photograph and date of birth to my private
mail to make myself
believe in you? I
can check it out from
my Lord Muniswarer.
Since you are innocent, I hope you don't
mind send me your
photo.
I
said recently that I would not post anything to this forum. That
was
as a protest against the unsubscribing of Shri Ram Varmha.
I am not sure but heard that Mr. Ram used to reply briefly
in Akandabaratham and vastly in IC condemning Loga and
his Sumeru findings. It is apropriate to reply or refute
or
reasoning ones claim in the same group. (Unless cc). Upon
learning these tricks, I believe Loga had unsubscribed
him.
One thing Loga did was a quick action and never put him
a trial in the group. I believe through trial with members
of
this group, one found guilty then he should be given a
choice.
Eithe sincere apology or pack and go.
I don't have time, if
not I can track
anyone whoever they
are behind the wall of
mirrors. I can clearly see that after
Mr. Ram was thrown
out, a group favour of him trying to
sabotage
akandabaratham.
FYI, this Loga
was sabotaged by certain groups in tamilnet.
He and
the Bala Pillai survived but the loser left and formed
their own moderated
groups. After meykandar was subotaged
but the loser had to
leave on their own. Now akandabaratham.
We were fully aware
the tactics used
by certain people in
akandabaratham cos we had came through the
same tactics
which were used in
tamilnet and meykandar.
Best regards,
Ambrose.
Note: Loga, clyde,
paul, vr and bvk sastry concentrate in your
tamil, sumerian
and [Sanskrit] arguments. Leave other matters to vel
and nisala to handle.
Sometimes we need some clowns to
entertain us)
From: K. Thanappan
Date:
Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:21 am
Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: Fwd:
malarvizhi, kvenkat, radha_canada
LOGA, please visit the nearest psychiatrist for your
problems. Caste
is a single issue and this single issue is not the cause of the problems we
have in indian civilisation. It is not writing a new law to govern society and
the Hindus themselves must be blamed for doing nothing to change. Blaming the brahmin priests
won't take us anywhere.
kt
From: Paul Kekai
Manansala
Date:
Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:28 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
--- In [email protected], Ambrose <ambros@p...>
wrote:
> Dear Radha,
>
> radha_canada wrote:
>
> Note: Loga, clyde, paul, vr and bvk sastry
concentrate in your
> tamil, sumerian and sk arguments. Leave other matters
to vel
> and nisala to handle. Sometimes we need some clowns
to
> entertain us)
You're probably right, Ambrose. I'll try but sometimes it's hard
not getting involved in all the fun. But I realize it is
detracting
from meaningful interaction on this group.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
From: David Russell
Watson
Date:
Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:11 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
--- In [email protected], Ambrose <ambros@p...>
wrote:
> Dear Radha,
>
> Can you send your photograph and date of birth to my
private
> mail to make myself believe in you? I can check it
out from
> my Lord Muniswarer. Since you are innocent, I hope
you don't
> mind send me your photo..
Do NOT under any circumstances send your photograph or any
other personal information to this person, Radha. In case
you don't remember, this Ambrose is the same person who a
few years ago threatened on the I.C. list to decapitate
some people. That, along with his Munisvarar hallucinations
demonstrates him to be psychologically disturbed.
Please, do not out of some sense of honor put yourself and
your family at risk.
David
From: Deosaran
Bisnath
Date:
Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:24 pm
Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re:
Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Dear Fellow Members:
Where are we going with this thread?
Accusing people, asking for photographs, double and
multiple identities, lies,
deception.... I recently joined after being forwarded several informative
posts
from this group, so maybe I am not accustomed to the type
of posts in the group.
May I just add: I am moderator of 3 YAHOO groups,
including Caribbean Hindus;
based on my experience and knowledge, in a Moderated
group, the Moderator(s),
the author(s) of a post, and anyone who has the Access
level, CAN modify a
post. If I wish, I can modify any of the posts in the
groups I moderate, I can
modify the source e-mails to anything, real or imagined.
Regards,
Deosaran
From: David Russell
Watson
Date:
Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
--- In [email protected],
"david_russell_watson" wrote:
>
> ... this Ambrose is the same person who a
> few years ago threatened on the I.C. list to
decapitate
> some people. That, along with his Munisvarar hallucinations
> demonstrates him to be psychologically disturbed.
The post in which he threatened to have some people's
heads chopped off, message #9904, has been removed from
the IndianCivilization list's archives. However Kaushal
Vepa, who was moderator at that time, quoted Ambrose's
threat in message #9909 which is still there. Also see
Ambrose's message #9823 in which he offers to reveal his
method for seeing ghosts in graveyards.
If all that isn't enough, see also Ambrose's website at
http://www.ambros.freeservers.com/miss01.html where he
offers, for $100.00 each, to use his spiritual powers to
locate missing persons. He charges $500.00 to locate the
remains of a dead missing person.
It's a shame that his spirituality doesn't satisfy him
with spiritual rewards alone.
Good gods what a nest of loons!
David
From: K. Loganathan
Date:
Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:37 pm
Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re:
Living a life of lies and deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Dear Desaram
Welcome to akandabaratam. This welcome note is also
extended to many members who have just joined the group. Just for the
information of the new members, let me say that this is an unmoderated group
and I am the only moderator and group-owner as well. I do not interfere with
any of the posts - let them appear as they are written by the authors.
I believe in freedom of expression and also in self-moderation. Only in some extreme cases I
interfere and if necessary unsubscribe. I realize that this has its own
disadvantages but I strongly believe that in the long run quite effective.
The authors are of various kinds and hence the qualities
too may vary. However I believe the overall tone has been very healthy and
thanks to the scholalry inputs of many good souls , we are making history by
contributing substantialy towards a re-understanding of the genesis of Indian
Civilization and how it is linked to many other ancient civilizations in the
world. We are also
sperheading NEW thinking so that a massive change in Indian (and world)
thinking is also initiated.
This will continue despite some hiccups on the way
but certainly also part of the game. The group will remain unmoderated so that
members can continue to enjoy the freedom to express their own feelings and
their posts getting into the acrhives just as written by them
Loga
From: Vel Murugan
Date:
Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:47 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Deosaran:
What you are saying is, Loga modified every post made by Malarvizhi so
that it appears to originate from the 24.215.115.70. Am I reading you
right here? Wow!
Now take this gauntlet and prove your digital prowess. Ask Loga to
send your discussion group a post. And you will change the
header to
make it appear as if it was posted by me. You want to take
this as a challenge?
We can sue Yahoo for big bucks!
Nisala gave detailed reasoning as to why Malarvizhi and
Kalavai Venkat
are one and the same people. It looks like Deosaran has not cared to
read Nisala's posts.
I never knew Loga is a computer whiz, that he could change
the header
of every one of the posts from Malarvizhi and make it look
like it
originated from 24.215.115.70 or 142.176.139.215.
You know what Mr. Deosaran, every one of the Akandabaratam
members who
chose to receive emails of the posts, do have a copy of the
post made
by Malarvizhi (sure!) in the name of Radhakrishna Warrier!
As they say, you cannot fool all the people all the time.
Vel Murugan
From: pirayaani
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005
12:12 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Let's assume that it is Loga who has moderated Malarvizhis
post to
look like it is the same person as Radha, then why of all
people
Radha? Does Loga have a history with Radha as he has with
Kalavai?
What I did found suspicious about this
Malarvizhis-character aka
claiming to be a dalit woman was that she has branded almost
every "dravidans" as barbarian invaders and
imposed an evil caste
system on the natives of
peaceful migrating people who sort of have modified the
caste-system.
pirayaani
From: Deosaran
Bisnath
Date:
Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:27 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Dear Vel:
Thanks for your response. No, I have not, and do not,
accuse or imply the
esteemed Loga of modifying any posts. I respect and admire
Loga and his work;
in fact, I did not know who was the Moderator(s) of this
forum before Loga's
reply, and I did not know if the forum was moderated or
not.
I merely pointed out that it was possible for anyone who
had the Access rights
to modify posts. I am a new member, I came in late on the
thread, hence I do
not have a complete picture and timeline of this event.
>
Thanks,
Deosaran
From: [Nisala Rodrigo]
Date:
Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:29 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Dear Deosaran Bisnath,
>
What you mentioned about the moderator is probably right,
although I
would not believe that Dr. Loganathan would stoop that
low, from my
experience. I myself did not observe "Malarvizhi"'s
post under the
name of Radha's, so I cannot comment on it. I am at a loss
to
explain how Radha's account got mixed up in this. Probably
of all
members of akandabaratam, his views on both Dr. Loganathan
and the
IC "scholarship" are the most similar to mine I
think, although he
expresses them in a more decent manner. I wish he would
participate
more, bearing in mind that Dr. Loganathan has given Ram
Varmha a
chance to resubscribe (really generous, considering how
Ram insulted
him in IC).
I would be truly disgusted if this forum was hacked into,
and under
normal circumstances I would be really surprised.
Akandabaratam has
a number of members but not an overwhelming calling. Which
is why
Venkat's antics here amaze me - what does he have to gain
by
denigrating Dr. Loganathan? What does he find so
threatening, if
Loga is the crackpot Venkat claims him to be???
Well, in any case it would seem that Venkat has
acknowledged defeat,
for now, by limiting his verbal diarrhea to a rather
disturbing "weekly." I can understand his having
second thoughts on
being humiliated on a daily basis.
>
>
Nisala
From: Ambrose
Date:
Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:51 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Vanakkam David,
david_russell_watson wrote:
---
In [email protected], "david_russell_watson"
<liberty@p...>
wrote:
>
>
... this Ambrose is the same person who a
>
few years ago threatened on the I.C. list to decapitate
>
some people. That, along with his Munisvarar hallucinations
>
demonstrates him to be psychologically disturbed.
The post in which he threatened to have some
people's
heads chopped off, message #9904, has been
removed from
the IndianCivilization list's archives.
Sure someone might have the message. They can forward here.
However
Kaushal
Vepa,
who was moderator at that time, quoted Ambrose's
threat
in message #9909 which is still there. Also see
Ambrose's
message #9823 in which he offers to reveal his
method
for seeing ghosts in graveyards.
If you are coward, please don't try any of the method. Hide
behind the skirts!!! (Can someone forward the message to me.)
If
all that isn't enough, see also Ambrose's website at
http://www.ambros.freeservers.com/miss01.html where he
offers,
for $100.00 each, to use his spiritual powers to
locate
missing persons. He charges $500.00 to locate the
remains
of a dead missing person.
Thanx for advertise my webpage. So it is not scam.
You talk like a child down
here. You study college / university
by spending large money to
obtaine degrees. After obtaining,
will you select profession
where you can work without pay?
Rightnow are you working for
your ricebowl? If not, I accept
your comment above because it
was understood a child has
no worriess and depent on
fathers wallet.
My dear friend, I am glad that
you gave me opportunity to
enlighten to other members. We
are about ten or more people
doing this but I am the main
spokesman for everyone in my
team. It is not simple to find
a missing person in
staying in
and my friends learn more than
twenty years. These expertism
is not for just for free
service. My friends having family.
If they used methods from maya
world, it will take days. So
they don't have to go work
earn ricebowls. The small fees
will help them and their
family. About rituals have to purchase
many items. It will cost a
lot. I can do free service but shall
I bill your father or you?
OK! I will do one case for
free for you. Can you contact
the family of one missing
person to contact us? You will
stand as a middleman. Either
you are they have to pay
single cent. Can you do it?
It's
a shame that his spirituality doesn't satisfy him
with
spiritual rewards alone.
Oh GOD you are jealous. At least we are doing a good
service to mankind. Are you afraid that I will recover the
remains of the lady you murdered???? Sue me.
Good
gods what a nest of loons!
Also you are one of the nest...!!!
Oru Tamilan.... Ambrose.
David
From: Ambrose
Date:
Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:22 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Dear David,
david_russell_watson wrote:
---
In [email protected], Ambrose <ambros@p...> wrote:
>
Dear Radha,
>
>
Can you send your photograph and date of birth to my private
>
mail to make myself believe in you? I can check it out from
>
my Lord Muniswarer. Since you are innocent, I hope you don't
>
mind send me your photo..
Do NOT under any circumstances send your
photograph or any
other personal information to this person,
Radha.
So you are covering his arse by not showing to others
whether he posted or not under malar's name.
In
case you don't remember, this Ambrose is the same person
Always Ambrose will be same. He will not cover his face under
the name of David, Malar or Radha. Only the real gentleman will
allowed to see one's photo or particulars in the WWW to show
the person is real and not duplicated. Are you a gentleman?
who
a
few
years ago threatened on the I.C. list to decapitate
some
people. That, along with his Munisvarar hallucinations
demonstrates
him to be psychologically disturbed.
My dear friend, if you wanted to tell something, you must tell
in full. You must tell the members, why and what makes to
me respond in such a way. You are not telling to I.C. members.
In Akandabaratham members were unlike as the other groups for
just listening in what you say. These members are not so stupid
and dumb to listen whatever you say. They knew how to evaluate
the facts.
Please,
do not out of some sense of honor put yourself and
your
family at risk.
Am I such a powerful person? He is living in
am in
Oru Tamilan.... Ambrose.
David
From: David Russell
Watson
Date:
Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
--- In [email protected], Ambrose wrote:
>
> Oh GOD you are jealous. At least we are doing a good
> service to mankind. Are you afraid that I will
recover
> the remains of the lady you murdered???? Sue me.
Or do you not in reality "locate" the bodies of those
whom you have yourself decapitated and buried, and then
offer up as those of the missing?
I think that the Malaysian authorities should be alerted
to your activities, and start keeping an eye on you.
> > Good gods what a nest of loons!
>
> Also you are one of the nest...!!!
No, just a stunned and amazed "ornithologist".
David
From: Ambrose
Date:
Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:10 am
Subject: Re: Living a life of lies and
deception - Why Kalavai Venkat?
Vanakkam David,
david_russell_watson wrote:
---
In [email protected], Ambrose <ambros@p...> wrote:
>
>
Oh GOD you are jealous. At least we are doing a good
>
service to mankind. Are you afraid that I will recover
>
the remains of the lady you murdered???? Sue me.
Or do you not in reality "locate"
the bodies of those
whom you have yourself decapitated and
buried, and then
offer up as those of the missing?
Don't divert the facts. The question is, are you a gentleman? I
only
like to discuss more to the real person and not to phony guys
whom I do not know. At least I respect the person like loga, VR,
BVK sastry, paul, clyde and sathia. At least I had seen their
photo
in the web or by other means to prove that they were real
human and gentlemen. I respect their writing whatever views.
Either negative or positives.
Can you give your bio-data to
this group and join the club of
gentlemen? Only criminals and
nasty thoughts humans will afraid
to identify themselves in
public.
I
think that the Malaysian authorities should be alerted
to
your activities, and start keeping an eye on you.
You should arranged. This coming Sunday we are going to
decapitate seven heads in one of the temples in
Real evidence and interesting to watch.
>
> Good gods what a nest of loons!
>
Also you are one of the nest...!!!
No, just a stunned and amazed
"ornithologist".
Only the loser will tell this and that. I have no time to reply
for your childish comments.
Best regards,
Ambrose.
David
From: David Russell Watson
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 4:44 AM
To: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Subject: Warrier
--- In
[email protected], Sunthar wrote:
>
> Your time's
finally up Shakespear Warrier...see what happens to
> cyber-theater
when the Evil "manuvâdî zûdra-brahmin" Clown takes
> command of
English (apabhramza)!
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3018]
>
> Sunthar
Why ever would you
want to drag the name of the venerable Warrier into this mess, Sunthar? If you
knew Warrier like some of us do, you'd be ashamed to act in this way towards
him. Please don't tell me you share some common agenda with Akandabaratam's
inner circle.
Please leave Warrier
alone.
David
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3101 – order of thread reversed]
(Caste-) hierarchy, (cyber-) community, and (founding) violence: (clownish) avatârs of the (sacrificial) scapegoat
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005; 8:33 am
Propeller Head knows just about everything there is to know
about computers and the Internet, and is indignant that you don't. Often
an inarticulate and clumsy fighter he is still much to be feared because with a
few deft keystrokes he can reduce your computer to a smoking heap of ruined
metal - or at least he SAYS [WE say? - SV]
he can...
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_22.php
Target is the guy everyone in a forum loves to hate. To some degree he brings this upon himself. For example, he may be a known cheater in a game forum, a conservative among liberals, a Windows guy among Mac enthusiasts, or even a man in a women's forum [smârta brahmin in a nest of 'Dravidianists'? - SV]. Why Target places himself in such dicey situations is anyone's guess, but he seems genuinely oblivious to his precarious position. When Target inevitably runs afoul of a forum's prevailing attitudes the other Warriors unleash their collective fury upon him. His usual reaction is "Hey, what did I do?" or "Why do you all hate me?" Target usually gets the hint after a while and moves on. NOTE: Target often serves as a useful pressure valve for the forum's pent up hostilities. Therefore, if the current Target has been driven off or immobilized a new target will be quickly selected. CAUTION: Target is a favorite disguise of Troller and Evil Clown.
Target, http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_67.php
A Swarm hive [= any community as
an expression of human society in general? - SV] is almost impossible to
detect. When a hapless victim stumbles on a forum that houses a Swarm and
disturbs it with a message that runs counter to its prevailing ideology, the
Swarm will erupt without warning. Taken one at a time the irrelevant, often
mindless attacks by individuals in a Swarm can be crushed or easily brushed
aside, but because of the sheer volume of the assault even the strongest
Warriors must yield. WARNING: Only those who are highly skilled in Swarm management
techniques should attempt to wade into a Swarm hive. Protective clothing will
not prevent a Warrior from getting a few stings.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_68.php
No one knoweth whence cometh the Peacemaker, nor whither he goeth. He restoreth peace unto the people. He seeketh neither praise nor glory, but only that all might love one another and that the lamb might lie down with the lion. Anyway, some Warriors have a talent for pouring oil on troubled water. CAUTION: Beware of false messiahs.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_35.php
Yet Réné Girard, for whom Christianity remains closer to the
truth than psychoanalysis or the other human sciences, seeks to reinterpret the
Christian mystery itself in terms of the primordial violence at the heart of
humanity, which the archaic religions were regularly and universally compelled
to channel into the mechanisms of the sacrificial scapegoat, often the king
himself, in order to prevent human society from reverting to undifferentiated
chaos, to protect society from man himself. At least one of the Vidûshaka's
ritual models was the Vedic deformed human scapegoat upon whom not only the
evil of the initiated king but the sins of the whole community were discharged,
and the clown as the favorite butt of our aggressive tendencies continues to
play this scapegoat role in the drama. [15: For the origins of the hero of
Greek tragedy in the ritual scapegoat of archaic Greek religion, see J. P.
Vernant and P. Vidal-Naquet, Mythe et Tragédie en
Grèce Ancienne, new ed. (Paris: F. Maspero, 1981), their arguments
being further developed in Girard, "Oedipe et la victime émissaire,"
(1972).] Has modern humanity
really evolved to such a degree that it can now forgo such specifically
religious mechanisms and achieve global unity through purely moral precepts,
however noble?
Sunthar V., The "Ethical Problem"
of Transgressive Sacrality" in Transgressive Sacrality in the Hindu Tradition" (1985)
[<page
434>] Archaic
religion was universally centered on a deliberate, but carefully delimited,
though often violent transgression which, in the founding mechanism of the
sacrifice, even assumed the form of ritual(ized) murder. Having posed the problem as to whether the
instincts that seek and find expression in these sacralized transgressions
could possibly be eradicated in the course of human progress or “if it is a
question on the contrary of a sovereign and irreducible part of man, [435>] but
which would hide itself from his consciousness? if in a word it is a question of his heart ...?” (loc.
cit.), Bataille himself is inclined to the latter view that, to use Indian
terminology, the organized sát aspect of life is founded on the
original but suppressed chaos ásat which, as the ultimate truth
of man's humanity, must be given conscious but circumscribed expression within
this very order itself.
Sunthar V., "The Royal Murder of the Brahman(ized) DîkSita: The Inner Conflict of Man"
(1989)
Whereas my mentor Prof. F.B.J. Kuiper had
proposed, in his magnum opus, that the 'great'
brahmin vidûSaka ('reviler') was actually
the transposition within the Sanskrit theater of the (Âtreya) scapegoat (jumbaka) of the Vedic sacrifice and that his comic
role would have been due to later misunderstanding on the part of the classical
dramaturgists, my own doctoral thesis has established that this function of
taking on the evil (pâpa) of the entire
community was actually a secondary (though still crucial) derivative of his primary
function as violator of brahmanical taboos, and that the clown as the
universal butt of collective hostility remained not just a substitute for but
also a prolongation of the archaic scapegoat (John Irwin subsequently showed me
a private letter from Kuiper admitting, with his characteristic
self-effacement, just how wrong he had been...which in no way takes away from
the fact that I'd never have taken this brahmin clown seriously without
his path-breaking effort!). While the unceasing eloquence of today's
'enlightened' society on the innate nobility, equality, and oneness of all
humanity only serves to increasingly highlight, by contrast, the multiplying
ravages of our genocidal tendencies, this founding violence was explicitly
recognized, institutionalized, and contained in the (Vedic) sacrifice (of the
primordial man, from whose members the whole ordered universe was created).
Any functional community is founded on a network
of shared representations and values that are necessarily based on a set of
collective choices that exclude alternative modes of being together that now
become embodied in real or imagined 'dangerous' others. The sacrificial core of
the worldwide Islamic umma, defined in
opposition to the kafirs beyond the pale, is revealed in the annual
reaffirmation of religious bonds through the slaughter of animals (during the
Îd festival by those unable to make it to
The challenge in ancient (north-western) India (probably from 2500 BC at least) was all the greater in that a social 'system' (or rather, process) had to be devised that would allow not just the peaceful coexistence but controlled interaction of entirely disparate ethnicities with their own internal norms and jurisdictions, with ever newer groups entering the ever-widening cultural order (and not just as invaders or refugees). The caste-hierarchy is best understood, it seems to me, as an attempt to solve this (now increasingly pressing) problem of (global) diversity by raising the pure brahmin, in principle committed to self-restraint and non-violence, to a position of ultimate authority as knowledge-managers for society as a whole. By disjoining spiritual authority from temporal power, the problem of violence was addressed by allowing economically ambitious and martially-inclined groupings (including invaders from outside) to assume the role of dominant caste (kSatriya), rivalize with, and even destroy each other (recall the Mahâbhârata?) through 'feudal' violence contained within its own 'legitimate' sphere. Not only could no royal dynasty remain long in power without religious endorsement by the brahmins, the ultimate values and sacrificial paradigm embodied by the latter became willy-nilly the frame of reference for the whole of society. Conflict was minimized because desire itself was mediated by the social group into which one was born into, such that the personal ambition typical of a merchant or farmer (vaizya) was, in those times, certainly far from that of the warrior or brahmin. Precisely because the opposition of the pure and the impure, encoded into ritual behavior and the ingrained habits of the body itself, was generalized throughout Indian society regardless of conscious 'cerebral' representations, even those movements (such as Buddhism, Vîra Zaivism, Islam, etc.) that began contesting the caste-order ended up not just succumbing to but perpetuating it despite themselves (is it so surprising that it is especially among 'renegade' brahmins that we find individuals who have been most able to free themselves of caste prejudices?). However, the logical consequence of such an 'organic' approach to social order 'headed' by brahmins was the creation of a vast mass of laboring 'untouchables' prostrate at the feet of Brahmâ. What is astonishing, however, is the ritual ties that tightly bind the brahmin (e.g., at death), and the king, to the untouchable, precisely because of the centrality to 'Hinduism' of the pure/impure opposition. Anthropologists who have actually lived among or have had much intercourse with the lowliest of Indians (as opposed to 'activists' who simply project their own value system and champion the 'dalits' from afar...) have noticed that, until recently, the attitude of the latter has been one of deferential paticipation - but not without a strong sense of their just due within this order - rather than seething revolt. Unlike the American class-system where the uncontested reign of the dollar will persist only so long as everyone, including immigrants, can still share the tantalizing dream of making it rich, the caste-system had been a hierarchy first of social values and only indirectly a gradation of human beings.
The Vedic sacrifice did not seek to 'eliminate'
(violence and) chaos but to contain it by placing the act of (killing and)
destruction at its very center (recall what happened to DakSa-Prajâpati and the
officiating gods themselves when he refused to invite Rudra to his yajña?). The incapacity of any form of (even
sacralized) social system to 'resolve' once and for all its inherent tensions,
is acknowledged within the brahmanical order by the 'untouchable' Bhairava's
'heinous' decapitation of the inviolable Brahmâ and by the privileged
status of the (manu-vâdî?) zûdra-brahmin clown beside the royal hero of the
Sanskrit theater. (Super-) Brahmins, like our Abhinavagupta, who sought to
universalize their individual consciousness, identified themselves (not with
the Vedic Brahmâ but) with the tantric brahmanicide (and the scapegoated
VidûSaka?). If these exotic figures are not just the quaint products of an
idiosyncratic 'Hindu' imagination but the mythico-ritual encodings of our
hidden nature, should we not expect to see the same logic resurfacing even
within the emerging and still uncertain forms of cyber-community, and even more
explicitly so in online forums devoted to 'passionate' debates about
caste? The indispensable (even if mobile) target of collective hostility, the
scapegoat is invariably projected as not just a transgressor, often endowed
with (dark) 'magical' powers (conferred by Lord Munîshwara?), but even as an
irredeemable criminal. Just as the mythical figure of the wandering Jew was
accused of spreading the plague by deliberately posioning the Christian wells
of Medieval Europe, these days the primordial scapegoat also assumes the
elusive (NRI?) form of the IT-brahmin who not only muddies the communal
watering-holes of the Internet but is even capable (pace
Bill Gates) of taking control of your computer (and penetrating through the
windows of your mind?). Just as we can see the 'Jewish hand' in world
affairs, even in hoisting the intern Lewinski upon the unsuspecting 'populist' hero
Clinton, Dravidianist forums are in constant danger of being infiltrated and
subverted by 'untouchable' (zûdra) brahmins
masquerading under multiple including the most unexpected and even non-existent
identities (like our Dalit Christian Malarvizhi!). Curiously enough, the more
the (great?) brahmin (or
Now, in cyber-theater, we see Him so clearly - in
front of us - reduced to harmless 'innocence'...though multiplied into a bunch
of (evil?) clowns!
Enjoy!
Sunthar
P.S. To facilitate your reading of this 'high-tech sacrificial' discourse, I've highlighted in brown the relevant text in the digest below .
[Rest of this thread at Sunthar /
Paul (Mar 25, 2005 )
GOD: the ultimate Flame-Warrior who wins (us all over) without fighting a single battle?
The
“interview with God”—beautifully illustrated through His own natural handiwork—highlights
the emotional (limbic) dimension of religious devotion and human bonding. While
forwarding the URL received from Jack Park to our Dia-Gnosis forum, I felt
compelled to make it relevant by interrogating our diverse ways of
(conceptually) ‘representing’ the Ultimate principle (whether God, the Void,
the Brahman, the Tao, or the Matrix) that has been at the root of religious
conflicts in the past and comparing this global predicament to the
philosophical issues that underpin the technical problems of name-resolution
for meaningful communication across cyberspace. Juxtaposing these two otherwise
disparate domains is all the more valid because ‘God’ (however you may choose
to call Him…or rather HER?) has become not just a major instigator and
amplifier of the cacophony that reigns over Internet forums supposedly
dedicated to His defense but gets mixed up in disputes with educational boards
trying determine how He ought to be addressed in schoolbooks for American
ten-year olds: so much so that what we are really left with seems to be in fact
only so many ‘gods’ whether Hindu, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, tribal!
[This Act
will be completed after my response to Steve’s post in the light of the
California SBE disputes - SV]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3020 – order of thread reversed]
From: Jack Park
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:00 AM
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Thanks BillD,
For some raw beauty, visit
http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/windowmovie2.html
I almost never send along "blonde" jokes, but...
[deleted - SV]
Subject:
"An Interview with God" - whose Word (Logos) now works its natural wonders through digital imagery!
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005; 4:52 am
These days when there are so many 'forums' devoted to advocating religions of love (? and wisdom?) but that seem to be filled with only hate (and ignorance), some of you—especially devotees of (not just 'religious') aesthetics—might appreciate this "Interview with God"!
Sunthar
P.S.
Thanks for sending this along Jack!
Subject:
[God] [Abhinava msg #3839 – order of thread reversed]
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005; 7:21 am
In the beginning, before bandwidth, there was nothingness. Out
of that endless void God and His heavenly host created...Arpanet, and it was
good. But the scientific, military and computer angels Who dwelled in Arpanet
were lonely, so They brought forth Browser, and the Web was born. It, too, was
good and the children of the Internet lived in peace and harmony and were
fruitful and multiplied, but God warned His people not to eat of the forbidden
fruit of commercialism [, public forums, knowledge of
Good and Evil, and stale humor? - SV]. Alas, they disobeyed and soon
barbarians [flame warriors? -SV] drove the
children of the Internet out of
God, http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_75.php
These days He has taken to advertising the
Semantic Web, Knowledge Management, and Topic Maps as the universal panacea for
the (not just intercultural) communication problems of our contemporary
.....after all, the (radical?) Kabbalists had
already taken their 'theurgy' one step further by claiming that God needs man
to restore his Unity (tahweed) by collectively
reconstituting his (fragmented and unspeakable) Name!
Sunthar
Subject:
From: Steven R. Newcomb
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 8:08 PM
To: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Sunthar, thank you for sharing this.
I think it's interesting to juxtapose two Genesis
stories: Adam's divinely-assigned task of naming everything, and the
Tim Berners-Lee's vision of endowing everything
with at least one URI can be compared with Adam's naming task. The
inevitable result of Tim's vision—a situation in which there is an unbounded
number of ways to address anything and everything—can be compared to the
situation at the conclusion of the
The Kabbalist claim you mention compares very interestingly to the ISO Topic Maps Reference Model's objective of facilitating the possibility of making many ways of addressing the same thing resolve to the same place. (http://www.isotopicmaps.org/TMRM/TMRM-latest.pdf)
Steve
Steven R. Newcomb,
Consultant
Coolheads Consulting
Co-editor, Topic Maps International Standard (ISO 13250)
Co-drafter, Topic Maps Reference Model
>
>
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3839]
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006; 6:01 pm
Another issue the Witzel panel disapproved was to use upper-case 'G' for God when referring to Hindu worship of God. Commissioner Levine noted that for Hindus there are many forms of the one God. [Levine was unwittingly resurrecting an old scholastic technique for reconciling polytheism with monotheism!]
Hindus requested one sentence in one book be changed from saying, 'Modern Hindus continue to visit temples to express their love of the gods,' to '...visit temples to worship and express their love for God.' This was rejected by Witzel's group, but accepted by the Commission. Similar changes were accepted throughout the books.
Cited in Steve Farmer (Dec 31, 2005, Indo-Eurasia),
Eyewitness Reports: Dec. 2nd Calif. Curriculum Commission Meeting
"What's in a name? Would God by any other Name
(not) mean the Same?" - (quotable quote from Yours Truly!)
Dear Steve,
In case our friends in Topic Maps Land haven't
heard, there's a growing international controversy (over the still pending but
highly contested decision by the California State Board of Education as to)
whether Hindus worship many 'gods' or just God through many names (and
forms)...
http://www.pluralism.org/news/index.php?xref=California+Textbook+Controversy&sort=DESC
We are putting together a 'collaborative'
cyber-production of Mike Reed's gallery of Flame-Warriors to celebrate the New
Year saturnalia:
http://www.svabhinava.org/Dia-Gnosis/DialoguesDiagnosis/FlameWarriors-frame.htm
Thanks again for your perceptive remarks and my
apologies for forwarding them so late.
With best wishes for the New Year (to everyone),
Sunthar
P.S. My long-overdue response to your remarks below
on the (nameless?) 'God' of Topic Maps has been simmering since March in my
Drafts folder.
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3051]
From: Nandakumar
Chandran
Date: Fri Mar 25, 2005; 6:30 am
…a point I made publicly to Dipesh Chakraborti last year when
he >resorted to Aristotle in search of an explanation for mass violence >in
the streets of Marxist
as bhartrhari says : without language there cannot be thought (ie one always thinks in some language or the other).
if one loses the capability to think in one's native language and is forced to use an alien language, it is simply mental hijacking where the mind is forced to co-relate/retrofit native situations with alien categories.
yes there's some benefit in such a process (even as indians have benefitted from the fruits of western industrialization). but there's also a great deal of negatives which come with it (incapacity to think naturally/originally, unconcious subservience to the (ex) colonial master/culture and thus unconcious lack of self- respect etc).
more than anything this is the greatest harm done to the indian peoples during colonial rule.
Nandakumar
Subject:
[All Caps, Grammarian, and Loopy]
From: [Sunthar Visuvalingam]
Date: Fri Mar 25, 2005; 6:30 am
ALLCAPS attempts to compensate for his limited rhetorical weaponry through the extravagant use of capitalized words - something netizens refer to as SHOUTING. Sure, a sprinkling of capitalized words can add spice to an attack, but overuse is like too much tarragon in the stew. Even worse from a tactical point of view, too much shouting alerts other Warriors to the opponent's verbal WEAKNESS and emotional EXCITABILITY.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_32.php
Grammarian usually has little to contribute to a discussion and possesses few effective weapons. To compensate, he will point out minor errors in spelling and grammar. Because of Grammarian's obvious weakness most Warriors ignore him.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_30.php
Garble is a mystery: Is he a foreigner with only tenuous grasp of English? Is his brain addled by some powerful drug? Does he suffer a serious mental debility? Is he typing wearing a catcher's mit? Garble's rampant typos, malapropisms and seemingly aggressive use of execrable grammar can't be explained merely in terms of poor typing skills or the lack of a spell checker. Even non-English speakers generally do a better job of punctuation grammar and capitalization, and Garble is all the more puzzling because if one goes to the trouble of wading through the muddle of his messages a discernable idea will usually emerge. For example, in a forum discussion about a painting he might say, "Sorry the picchr the har is wrog. The culir. I liike the lips bot teh Paintng is sucs". When attacked for his random capitalization Garble might respond, "oPS i HITTED THE CAPDLOCK". Not surprisingly, he drives Grammarian and Nitpick absolutely nuts, but he is utterly impervious to any sort of correction and if their attacks persist he will sign off in a huff with something like, "yuor forum si stupef. bYE!" CAUTION: Garble may be Net Rat.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_79.php
Hello Nandakumar,
It's just as easy (lazy?) to type only in capital letters with CAPS LOCK on as it is to type only in lowercase, and yet we know that ALL CAPS are not welcome at (if not actually banned from...) most sober Internet forums. If I allowed you to continue taking liberties in this matter, I may have to rescind my earlier regulations against posting messages in multiple colors and font sizes (as Ralph was doing at the outset for 'aesthetic' reasons invoking Abhinavagupta!) or including large citations and even 'original' fragments in (incorrect) Sanskrit (as Chanchal Bhattacharya = John Bee) was doing before he unsubscribed in a huff on account of my 'pedantry'...
The Rigvedic poet-craftsmen often deliberately violated the rules of orthography, syntax, grammar, etc., in order to multiply and intensify the symbolic power of (the 'divine') language (Renou), but they did this sparingly and with good reason (even if we are no longer able to make sense now of many of the liberties they took). Such 'contrary speech' was inherited and retained by the VidûSaka of the Sanskrit theater, whose often unintelligible 'jokes' start to make profound sense once we start taking him seriously (something that our Indian 'Shakespeare Warriors' seem quite incapable of...).
There is nothing to stop you from launching a forum to celebrate the poetry and linguistic innovations of ee cummings, and argue for yet another dialect of 'indian english' inspired by his genius. Having done my doctorate on the 'great brahmin' clown, I'm certainly no stickler for grammatical correctness for its own sake (has anyone here kept count of the 'neologisms' with which I've freely sprinkled my own prose on this list?). However, I don't want to see us sliding down a slippery slope to end up an online circus of garbled clowns!
Thanks.
Sunthar
P.S. I'm allowing this through but future posts will
require some effort on your part on (re-) locating the Shift key for approval.
[Open Stage]
[This emptiness is the large world-stage where the other Flame warriors are yet to make their appearance! – SV]
Is a member of this virtual community accountable for his behavior in another forum?
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3125]
Is Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?
From: David Russell Watson
Date: Sun May 8, 2005; 6:23 pm
--- In [email protected], S.Kalyanaraman wrote:
- edit -
Wait till I post about the Akhanda Bharatam which will absorb many of
the so-called nation-states.
We need a Hindu mahâ-sâgar parivâr to cherish the
mleccha heritage. Do the cybalist people know about a language called mleccha mentioned in Mahâbhârata?
Dhanyavâdah.
[Kalyanaraman]
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/74751
where “Dr.” Kalyanaraman refers to his dream for S.E. Asia.
David
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3126]
Re: Is Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?
From: Mary Hicks
Date: Mon May 9, 2005; 11:00 am
On 5/8/05, David Russell Watson wrote:
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/74751
where “Dr.” Kalyanaraman refers to his dream for S.E. Asia. [David]
Is it possible for you to provide a comment upon another's observation (from another thread, no less) without resorting to invective?
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3169]
Re: Is Notorious Internet Crackpot Declaring Colonial/Imperialist Agenda?
From: David Russell Watson
Date: Mon May 9, 2005; 1:50 pm
--- In [email protected], Mary Hicks wrote:
Is it possible for you to provide a comment upon another's observation (from another thread, no less)…
Actually, from another list, no less.
…without resorting to invective?
It is certainly possible, but mere commentary was not my end.
Now, do you have any thoughts on the crackpot's agenda to share?
David
Subject:
From:
Date: Mon May 9, 2005; 1:50 pm
For Tireless Rebutter there is no such thing as a trivial dispute. He regards all challenges as if the barbarians were battering at the gates. His unflagging tenacity in making his points numbs and eventually wears down the opposition. Confident that his arguments are sound, Tireless Rebutter can't understand why he is universally loathed.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_20.php
Kalyan's posting rights to this forum had been promptly suspended on Dec 26, 2004, after his obnoxious comments on the Christian deaths at Vellangani caused by the tsunami last Xmas:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/2532
Why then simply keep on abusing him here when he
no longer has the right of response? It would have been preferable to accompany
the citation with at least some (attempt at) diagnosis of why Hindus are so
upset with
Instead we have the usual disruptive role of 'agent provocateur'...
Sunthar
P.S. With 'leaders' (Führers?) like these to lead their 'Vedic' revival, Hindus have surely no need of any enemies....
[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (May 22, 2005)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3168
What is Haoma/Soma...sage Nârada on cyberspace rampage? ]
Loopy, Troller, etc.:
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3266 – order of thread reversed]
Re: Geopolitics and Sanskrit Phobia
From: [Troy Dean Harris]
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005; 4:34 pm
Why did Troyji bring in a label here where none was necessary? Is it not possible to discuss an issue on its own merits? Even assuming that Rajivji is projecting a Hindutva viewpoint, irrespective of whether he is a votary of Hindutva or not? [Ashokji]
Dear Ashok,
I am a serious researcher in the field of rhetoric. This interested is shown in my recent Grafting Plato's Shadow Play: A Spray Can Version of Metaleptic Mimêsis. What you have alluded to in your post [excerpted above] is the gist of my natural and unreserved inquiry into an apparent perceived rhetorical position. My interest lays almost exclusively in the language, therefore the rhetoric, and also – but somewhat more incidentally – the viewpoint. Please remember that I posed my question as, [quote] <<Is this what is called a "hindutva" viewpoint?>> [unquote].
I had actually already continuated my discourse in
a post entitled Towards a New Sanskriti. I composed this – by the way – prior
to
Sritantra
Note to text [1] The weblog version may be better, anyway. I am afraid that 3 of the five intertextual hyperlinks to images of Vat Phu Sanctuary, southern Laos, were faulty in the version I posted to the list. References Sritantra 2005. Grafting Plato's Shadow Play: A Spray Can Version of Metaleptic Mimêsis http://a-grafting-of-shadow.blogspot.com/
Sritantra 2005. Towards a new sanskriti http://bauddhamata.blogspot.com/2005/07/towards-new-sanskriti.html
Sritantra 2005. Present editorial preferences http://torrid-zone-shade.blogspot.com/2005/07/present-editorial-preferences.html
[In response to a post by Ashok Chowgule
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3256.]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3266]
From: [Sunthar Visuvalingam]
Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005; 4:34 pm
Troller is looking for a response...ANY response, and he will chum the waters with complaints, insults, compliments, and inflammatory tidbits hoping that someone...ANYONE, will take the bait. Generally quite harmless—practices a form of catch and release. Nonetheless, he can upset the delicate ecology of a discussion forum. Once a forum becomes aware of his presence, however, all feeding activity ceases and Troller must move on to more promising waters.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_28.php
No point responding further to provocations from this "Buddhist" vidûSaka (whose Prakrit 'rhetoric' would make even the "father of Sanskrit Kâvya," the venerable AzvaghoSa wince in regret...), as I've already pulled the plug on him (i.e., he's forfeited his rights to post to this forum).
Regards,
Sunthar (monitor)
[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (Jun 20, 2004)
"Moderating an discussion group - democracy, kin(g)ship and regicide on the Internet :-)"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/2007]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3267 – order of thread reversed]
From: [Troy Dean Harris]
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005; 3:58 am
It has been suggested to me that the term hindutva may be best understood as; first of all, an offshoot of the belief in essential things, and that essential things may further be worth being. As affects itself, then, hindutva is the belief in an essential thing widely referred to as hindu, and that this thing called hindu is essentially worth being. Now the word's etymology is also a little curious; in so far as hindu- more or less stems from a Persian root, while -tva is a clear suffixation of sanskriti. Thus is hindutva typically rendered into the English language as hindu-ness.
*
But what combination of shades might we pinch off sanksriti's rich palette of blush and dye to compound a more alluring taste for the tongue to softly tender and inflect, say, ... hindu-ish?
*
Falling short of discursive habit and traditional twang of elliptical vagary would actually mark a blessing in disguise; but not to lag light years to the rear in non-figurative sinew and subtly sampled conveyance borne via plain intimation and insinuation...
O, but more than just a myth, sanskriti is the polish of a nuclear tongue that splits the diamond and frees its vernacular of aniconic mute things.
Sanskriti is a sentiment adjoining thinker to the charmed release of gracious ideation through the honoured visitation of savage sites, say:
The Vat Phu sanctuary oddly aesthetic like a derelict dragon over soft sorrel gradient, poised on the ruinous verge of elegance, crutched in a landscape stripped of wood, with disintegrating yonis cracked and abandoned, custodial seats of the elemental lichen, lined long the high-walled corridor incised in the traumas of the vanished primordial Khmer.
Sanskriti is acquitting all slim divergence soon self-warranting away and array of acute continuity spent to profusions strewn and stretched over swells that ply, and imply an appealing scenic moon as pivots millennial scores lambasting dullards' vision of an unimpeded text as gold as the thrashings scattered on the floor here, husks and chaff in chance arrangement.
References
Vat Phu Sanctuary southern
[Inspired by R. Malhotra's post
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3237 and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hindu-Buddhist/message/313]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3267]
From: [Sunthar Visuvalingam]
Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005; 3:58 am
In his 1775 Restoration comedy, The Rivals, Richard Sheridan introduced a humorous character by the name of Mrs. Malaprop. The name is derived from the French mal à propos, which means inappropriate (we also have the word malapropos in English), and describes the manner in which she used many words in her speech. See some Mrs. Malaprop quotations here.
The self-educated Mrs. Malaprop was always substituting a similar-sounding word for the word that she actually intended, often with the consequence of a hilariously nonsensical sentence. The name Malaprop has been immortalised in the form of the malapropism, any sentence in which one word has been used incorrectly in place of another. Malapropism examples.
These slips are sometimes divided into two broad classes: classical malapropisms, in which the mistakes are due to ignorance (as in the case of Mrs. Malaprop), and temporary slips of the tongue, in which the intended word is known by the speaker, but has been inadvertently replaced by another.
http://www.fun-with-words.com/mala_explain.html
Don't try to understand Loopy's messages—they will forever remain opaque to all but himself. Loopy is easily aroused and exuberant in battle and fearlessly flings himself at any Warrior—even Kung-Fu Master. Loopy's main weapons consist of a disarming array of nonsequiturs, tautologies, and bizarre metaphors, which can often gain him an advantage in the initial stages of an attack. Combatants very quickly realize, however, that Loopy is a certifiable nut case and generally avoid further engagement, although Jerk and Evil Clown sometimes egg Loopy on for their own amusement. CAUTION: Loopy cannot be defeated with conventional weapons. Any response to his attacks will often provoke a fusillade of incoherent messages. HINT: If ignored, Loopy will continue to clatter and foam until Nanny removes him from the discussion forum.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_45.php
-----
In response to Rajiv's column—which offers several listings of main points covered, clearly spells out his agenda, and whose substance and implications are being debated vigorously at Sulekha—a mere insinuation regarding 'Hindutva' (with absolutely no arguments), is thrust upon us. When queried as to his own intentions, Bhikkhu Malaprop rains his 'rhetoric' upon us. So now we have come to this: Americans, who can't even spell in their native tongue (especially considering that there were 4 South Asian kids topping the recent U.S. Spelling Bee...), offering (Tantric?) sermons (in sandhyâ-bhâSâ?) on 'culture' to (disabused?) Asians....?
Enjoy!
Sunthar (monitor)
[Rest of this thread at
"Re: Geopolitics and Sanskrit Phobia" (Jul 13/16, 2005)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3266]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3296]
PalAyadhvam, palAyadhvam, re re duSkavi kunjarah
From: Radhakrishna Warrier
Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005; 9:40 am
Sunthar has been very mild on those who have transgressed the posting guidelines of the 'Abhinavagupta' forum (including self). Some of these transgressors (self NOT included) haven't bothered about basic nettiquette. Yet all that Sunthar would do is to point out a flame warrior, and with a very mildly admonishing tone say "however, this time I am allowing the post through". I would like to see at least once (but not this time, however !) Sunthar roar like the famous Uddanda Shastrikal of yore "PalAyadhvam, palAyadhvam, re re duSkavi kunjarah" (Get lost, get lost, ye elephants of bad poetry), just changing duSkavi (bad poet) to some Sanskrit equivalent of duS-poster.
Now that I have brought up Uddanda Shastrikal, let me dwell briefly on the sUcita kathA (the story hinted at). Uddanda Shastrikal was uddaNDa (extaordinary, literally one who holds up a staff) not just in name but in deed too. According to the Namboodiris (Malayala brahmins) this 'lowly' PaTTar (Tamil brahmin) had the dhArSTya (audacity) to defeat them, the kavi kunjara-s, in the 'Revati PaTTattAnam", the annual scholarly debates conducted by the Zamorins of Calicut. On his journeys from Tamil Nadu to Calicut to take part in the annual scholarly debates, the Shastrikal would shout loud, in synchronism with his foot steps through the thick forest that separated the Tamil and Malayalam lands "Get lost, get lost, ye elephants of bad poetry, uddaNDa kesari ("uddanda the lion") of the Vedanta forests is coming your way", ostensibly to frighten away the elephants of the forest but in reality to rub a little salt into the wounds of the defeated Namboodiris. Well, the Namboodiris couldn't be outsmarted for long by a mere PaTTar. There came Kakkasseri Bhattatiri, from the abode of the crow (kAkka+zEri), who easily and thoroughly vanquished the haughty uddanda kesari. Kakkasseri was famous for his habit of remaining in "mauj, masti" under the influence of the cool "KaLLu" (toddy).
Thanks and regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3390 – order of thread reversed]
From: Jack Paulus
Sent: Thursday, May
26, 2005 8:31 AM
Ontological Ethics Owner,
We would like to introduce a new web-based tool that is designed to foster focused, rational debate. This tool is free (and will remain so) and it may be a perfect complement to your Yahoo group for while it does not reproduce any Yahoo group functionality it does provide an additional mechanism for rational dialogue that may be of interest to some of your members. As the owner of this group we feel that you are the best person to decide if this might be useful to your members so we will make no attempt to contact your membership directly.
This tool works in two stages. First, the tool steps an individual (or team) through breaking down their argument into its basic deductive structure which exposes the core of the argument. Second, users are permitted to critique any statement in this structure which may begin an in-place conversation on this single point; by keeping this conversation in-place through revisioning within the deductive context the debaters can not digress and the discussion remains focused.
Any topic can have arbitrary teams of users as defenders, critics and even those who may score topics which, in addition, makes it ideal for group use.
Some sample topics for this new tool may be found here: (choose "View Critiques" to see the in-place critique discussions)
http://www.truthmapping.com/viewtopic.php?id=220
http://www.truthmapping.com/viewtopic.php?id=230
http://www.truthmapping.com/viewtopic.php?id=232
More information on how this tool addresses the limitations of conversation, e-mail and message boards can be found here: http://www.truthmapping.com/about.php
And the main page is, of course: http://www.truthmapping.com
This is a free, volunteer created and maintained site whose goal is simply to elevate debate. No setup in required; simply come on in and try it out. Enjoy.
Thank you,
Jack
TruthMapping.com
p.s. Also, feel free to recommend any topic categories that would best meet the needs of your group.
p.p.s. And please excuse the lack of content for this site is brand new. Please help us elevate debate!
Subject:
New Debating Tool - please check out Jack Paulus website devoted to 'truth-mapping'
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005; 10:36 am
Hello Jack,
Thank you very much for making your new web-based debating tool available to our various (cross-cultural) discussion groups (not just Ontological Ethics) which have witnessed (sometimes heated) controversy over almost any topic imaginable. By obliging debaters to break down their arguments into their logical components, such a structuring tool forces us to become aware of our often unconscious presuppositions (bias) and blind spots. I therefore encourage members to familiarize themselves with your tool, propose fresh categories, and apply these principles.
It seems to me, however, that such linear approaches to collective reasoning need to be complemented (certainly not replaced!) by the judicious use of 'circuitous 'logic that exploits modes of thinking reflected in rhetoric, myth, ritual, etc. I see the primary function of the forums I moderate as 'understanding' rather than some elusive ideal of 'agreement' on controversial issues. The difference is that understanding expands by (constantly) redefining context and seeing hidden (logical and other) interconnections, a process in which 'noise' needs to be somehow (collectively) managed but not eliminated. More recently, I've begun to catalogue and illustrate (precisely on the basis of such noise and infractions) the various 'personality' (stereo-) types that one regularly encounters on Internet forums, so that others may more readily recognize their presence and learn how best to cope with them; and, hopefully, to help these 'personalities' through a process of self-therapy:
http://www.svabhinava.org/Dia-Gnosis/DialoguesDiagnosis/FlameWarriors-frame.htm
Moderator of several Internet forums devoted to interreligious dialogue, hence broaching 'articles of faith' through an appropriate form of reason, my own interest in the promise and pitfalls of Internet communications stems from my researches into knowledge management (1999 onwards) including Topic Maps. I hope that the above Dia-Gnosis outreach site will gradually serve as a platform for pooling and showcasing the complementary efforts of the several pioneers and ongoing contributors to this still uncharted territory, such as Jeff Conklin:
http://www.svabhinava.org/Dia-Gnosis/JeffConklin/default.htm
I had already drafted my above response in early June but was planning to amplify and post it only after having completed the digest of flame-warrior posts. As this still seems to be long way off, I'm glad that you resent an abridged version yesterday of your earlier post below.
So in the meantime, I'd still invite you to promote and clarify the workings of your truth-mapping tool at our related Dia-Gnosis forum:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dia-gnosis/
With best wishes for your efforts,
Sunthar
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3558 – order of thread reversed]
Re: Indian ethics [vs normativitis: Is the Abhinava forum moderator a Netiquette Nazi? - sv]
From: Mary Hicks
Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005; 12:04 pm
Normally in most societies one can find varied and often opposed theories. Nobody is questioning that. But the question here which is dominant [incomplete sentence? - SV]. [Sunthar]
Sunthar, please fire the grammarian presiding over this forum. It's demeaning to an individual whose visible limitation may be that English is not his native tongue. Would you correct someone sitting across the room from you, someone who may have conversant to varying degrees in half a dozen languages?
People cheered Kennedy years ago when in
(And from Google, his phrase contains a linguistic
mistake: QUESTION: "There has
been an ongoing discussion of this sentence by JFK. I was always under the
impression that one does not use the indefinite article (ein) with occupations
or nationalities, such as "ich bin Lehrer" not "ich bin ein
Lehrer" or "ich bin Amerikaner" not "ich bin ein
Amerikaner." Although
For myself, I would apologize that I, as conversationalist or listener, am unable to speak one of THEIR languages.
Unsolicited correction of another's speech also sets up a hierarchical dynamic: "I'm better/more learned/more facile that you." And, you're telling a lot of people about this faculty of yours.
Please.
Mary
[Response to Moderator's gloss on Nandakumar's post (Nov 10, 2005) at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3499]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3558]
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005; 12:04 pm
Netiquette Nazi is in control and she does not tolerate backtalk. The guidelines for every discussion forum are clearly posted and she demands obedience. If any of you sniveling dogs break the rules or deviate from strict observance of netiquette you WILL be punished.
Netiquette Nazi, Flame Warriors on the Internet, Politics Forum
------------------
P.S. I'd request that members not respond to this post until I'm able get around to clarifying some aspects of moderating a forum.
Thanks.
Sunthar
[Rest of this thread at Moderator comments on Vishnubhai's post (Nov 3, 2005) at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3551]
Subject: [Abhinava msg #3568]
Re: Indian ethics [vs normativitis: Is the Abhinava forum moderator a Netiquette Nazi? - sv]
From: Nandakumar Chandran
Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005; 6:05 am
Mary,
I myself (bad grammar again?) didn't take any offense.
I think Sunthar merely wanted to clarify whether the sentence was complete.
I think the "is" is missing after the "here.”
Beyond that I can't find any use for Wren and Martin here - but that's my level of proficiency in English grammar.
Yes, Mr.Moderator can be a control freak :-), but I've to accept that he has valid reasons.
Normally in most societies one can find varied and often opposed > theories. Nobody is questioning that. But the question here which is dominant [incomplete sentence? - SV]. [Sunthar]
Sunthar, please fire the grammarian presiding over this forum. It's demeaning to an individual whose visible limitation may be that English is not his native tongue. Would you correct someone sitting across the room from you, someone who may have conversant to varying degrees in half a dozen languages? [Mary]
[Response to Sunthar's comments on Mary's post (Nov 10-13, 2005) at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3558]
---------------------
Hello Nandakumar,
In this particular instance, I did not understand what you were saying and thought you might have forgotten to complete your thought. My insert was an invitation (instead of holding up your post), on everyone's behalf, for you to clarify (and not to point out a grammatical error). We already have enough traffic generated by substantive differences in opinion that I, as moderator, try to minimize the role of the language factor. It was only on reading Paul's citation of that paragraph a couple of exchanges down the road that I realized there was an "is" missing (which I inserted).
"But the question here [is] which [theory] is dominant."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3501
Actually, I make heavy but invisible edits (mostly of typos and punctuation) to practically all the posts that perhaps only some have noticed (and thanked me for...especially those whose native language is not English!). No one (else) has complained so far...
This greatly eases the sort of compilation work of Divya, and others, because much of the editing has been already done upstream (a basic principle of quality control...). Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of someone else proofing my own remarks (and posts).
Regards,
Sunthar
P.S. I've allowed this response through because the objection was raised on your (un-) 'offended' behalf but, again, but I'm not approving any further (especially cheeky...) posts on this issue until I'm able to find the time to clarify my 'editorial' policies.
[Rest of this thread at Sunthar V. (Mar 25, 2005)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/3051]